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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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yassem (2533 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
Canceling games due to cheating...
I have two questions concerning the mechanics of canceling games due to cheating.
25 replies
Open
KingCyrus (511 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
Greatest NHL Goaltender
Who was the greatest goaltender in NHL history?

Requirements: Must have played in the NHL. All statistics used must be from the NHL (sorry Tretiak)
13 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
11 Apr 15 UTC
Pupil changes teacher's desktop wallpaper, gets arrested.
Lol, whut?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/04/10/florida_middle_schooler_arrested_charged_with_hacking_cybercrimes.html
29 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Hypothetical
What if a country were to get to 18 SCs, but a retreats phase would let one of his opponents retreat into one of his SCs? would he win automatically, or do the retreats count?
schocker2 (100 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Retreats count and sc's are counted in the build phase....no win
A_Tin_Can (2234 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
The retreats *should* be processed before the game win check is done, but if this situation happens on webdip, there is a long standing bug where the game can (and will) be won before retreats.

I think the fix is not very difficult, but any change to the adjudicator needs to be VERY carefully tested- and it's annoying to test without a game that's in the right state. Speaking of- if anyone sees a game where this is possible (or about to be), please PM me and I'll take a snapshot of the database which I can use to test the fix.

~webdip dev team lead
rmf (100 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Does that mean this situation is not in the DATC?
Nescio (1059 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Supply centres ought to be counted in the "builds" phase; unfortunately webDip does it slightly differently: supply centre ownership is determined after every non-Spring phase (thus Autumn Diplomacy, Autumn Retreats, Autumn Builds); therefore it's possible to win a game prior to the retreats are processed, which strictly speaking is incorrect.

(I had a quick look at https://github.com/kestasjk/webDiplomacy/blob/master/gamemaster/game.php which seems to confirm this.)
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
thanks, though it was just a hypothetical, I haven't actually seen it
JECE (1248 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
rmf: The relevant sections are missing from the DATC tests. I mentioned this ages ago:
threadID=829390
Nescio (1059 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
It isn't just hypothetical. Games often end prior to the retreats phase. Although the retreats would often not have made any difference, e.g. gameID=156716 was clearly finished before the retreats phase had started, which is incorrect.
Puddle (413 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Shouldn't this be an easy fix? Why couldn;t you add a check to whatever mechanism checks win conditions that prevents that check from running unless it is the end of a build phase?
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
13 Apr 15 UTC
Programs are setup as a series of functions that issue commands to one another. If you change the location of a win check, it could have adverse effects on a function that assumes a check has not been made and do all sorts of nasty things, like infinite loops or small bugs that cause other problems.

Assume that a program is a very carefully orchestrated house of cards. If you move something from one place, it can have effects in other areas when you change supports and cause the whole thing to crash, or simply cause small parts to act strangely.
uclabb (589 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
So what you are saying is that web dip is coded poorly?
steephie22 (182 D(S))
13 Apr 15 UTC
If you think a very carefully orchestrated house of cards is built poorly, yes.
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
To everyone out there who replies to every single glitch in a website as "shouldn't that be an easy fix?" You don't know sourceforge and the site's programming. ATC does a great job so chill.
Puddle (413 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
I'm just genuinely curious as to what kind of problems would arise.

@Steephie, I understand the basic way that programming works, as I've used some software that requires all commands be in the form of code (statistical software mostly). It definitely seems like not every piece of the software should be so interconnected to every other part than any change results in a cascading stream of failures and collisions. Is that view simply not realistic/practical? Or is it not so much the code running the site itself as the infrastructure within which that code runs?
jbalcorn (429 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Running tests to make sure that a chance does not cause any regressive problems is just good coding. This is an important but very rare situation. Basically, he needs a game where it's about to happen so he can test against the database snapshot. It SHOULD be a simple fix. Nasty bugs are often created by what SHOULD be an easy fix.

ATC is only being as careful with his production code as anyone should be. We know of one example in thousands of games that were affected.
yebellz (729 D(G))
13 Apr 15 UTC
Think of this as a "house rule", like being able to talk during retreats and builds.
A_Tin_Can (2234 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
(+6)
I'm going to write a fairly long answer here, because "isn't this easy??" comes up a lot. Before I do, though, if you think what I'm about to describe *is* easy, then I'd like to point out that webdiplomacy is open source, and we welcome well-tested and well-written contributions. The github link is at the bottom of every page.

Firstly, usually code changes aren't actually as easy as one would expect - there's a difference between how easy something is to implement if we have to have it done RIGHT NOW, and how easy something is to implement if we want the code to still be clean and easy to maintain later.

Think of it like doing the dishes after dinner- sure, if I want to clear the table, it's easy to just put the dishes in the sink. But, if I keep doing that every time I want to use the table after dinner, over time the dishes stack up - and not only can I not clear the table, but I have a lot of work to do if I want to use the kitchen again (including cleaning dishes with dried-on mystery food).

Code is like that - getting something done now is easy, but getting something done in a clean way that isn't going to cause problems later down the track requires a bit more thought. WebDip is actually extremely well written - Kestas has put a lot of effort into the design, which means that maintaining the code and adding new features is a much nicer experience than it usually is with php projects (for those of you who don't know - although I've contributed most of the recent code updates, webDip is still 99.9% Kestas' work. And calling it a house of cards does a great disservice to all the hard work that he's put in). Sure, Kestas would probably be the first to tell you that the code isn't *all* clean, but as someone who's read a lot of his code, it is *generally* very clean. And even when it isn't, it's still easy to read.

In this case, the code change is (I think) actually pretty easy. I think the fix is probably two lines - one to remove the call to change the ownership of the supply centres from the current location in the adjudicator, and one to put it somewhere else (probably in the code that progresses the turn to the build phase).

I think those changes are probably all it takes. The key here is *probably*. We have nearly 2000 users currently playing in games - let's say I overlook something in making the change, and now supply centres don't change ownership correctly in some rare case (say, for example, when supply centres change hands but no-one has any builds - a bug that we could absolutely introduce - though I don't intend to).

We're not going to ruin a whole bunch of games just because I thought that the code was *probably* right after a fix. If we're changing the adjudicator, we're going to be very careful about testing it. As jbalcorn points out, this kind of dedication to testing is what's expected in software development. Unfortunately, webdip doesn't have any automated tests outside of the DATC, which means that we're relying on manual tests. And manual tests take time.

Even then, yes, it's not a *lot* of time. We're probably looking at an afternoon's work, max. However, webdip is a hobby project - no one is paid to work on it (and we plan to keep it that way). Everyone who works on the site does so in between work, life, and other hobbies. Working on the site includes things like new features (RR and the upcoming ability to add games you're not in to your home page), bug fixes, and borrowing features from our sister site, vDip (this includes the recent move previews and ability to mark press as unread). Finding four hours to fix and test a bug like this means that there are four hours not spent on other things. Adjudicator changes take more time because we're much more thorough about testing them.

Don't think that this isn't a priority, though - Hellenic Riot and the mod team kindly spent a few hours last night helping me set up some tests for this. We're working on getting this fixed, along with all the other improvements we have planned (including working on modernising the site). The next year should be an exciting time for webdip. But, don't expect this change tomorrow.

To see what we've been up to, we have a list of recent changes that you can see at http://webdiplomacy.net/recentchanges.php , and don't forget, we welcome code contributions in github pull requests. One of my goals for the year is to grow the dev team - please drop me a PM if you know how to use php/mysql/git and you're interested in helping out.
2ndWhiteLine (2606 D(B))
14 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
Thank you for that post TC. Good to clear the air.

Let me reiterate the most important part of what TC just said. This is a site run by volunteers because we're passionate about the game and the community here on the site. All the mods (well, except HR) have real lives and real jobs. TC works on improvements on this site *in addition* to his real job and real life. Plus, he's only been on the team since last summer (or winter for him). Check out the site improvements page to see what he's managed to accomplish in that short time. Look at the save and ready buttons!

If you really want to contribute, then by all means PM TC or one of the admins.
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
The code is written amazingly well, is extremely clean, and has very very few problems. As Tim mentioned the reason we don't make changes to game logic is simple, the impact if we mess up is massive. So any change has to be done with extreme care.
cardcollector (1270 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=117469#gamePanel
Perfect example. I was actually very surprised when I won that game.

So to reiterate, on the site you win if you have 18 SC's, even if someone can take away a center via a retreat. Of course, this is also wrong based on the original rules.
JECE (1248 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
A_Tin_Can: Thanks for the long explanation! You remind me of Kestas in how eloquently you responded.

I'm still unclear about this, though: are you planning to use the missing DATC test sections I mentioned in threadID=829390 to test this change?
A_Tin_Can (2234 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
As far as I'm aware, this case isn't covered by the DATC, so I don't think it would help.

I would like to add the missing sections to the automated tests, but tests outside the Diplomacy phase unfortunately require quite a bit of code restructuring. It doesn't really seem worth the time investment at the moment - though it's something I would like to do someday.
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
14 Apr 15 UTC
Take these, it's dangerous to go alone.

___________________________________
6.K. TEST CASES, GAME VICTORY CHECKS

6.K.1. TEST CASE, GAME VICTORY CHECK HAPPENS AFTER FALL RETREATS, NON-VICTORY

The game should only check for a solo win (18 supply centres) after the fall retreat phase

Russia owns:
MOS, WAR, SEV, ANK, CON, SMY, RUM, BUL, GRE, SER, BUD, VIE, TRI, VEN, ROM, NAP, TUN [17 total]

Fall (empty MAR, empty WAR):
Russia:
A PIE-MAR
A BOH s GAL-SIL
A GAL-SIL

Germany:
A SIL H

Retreats:
A SIL-WAR

Expected Result:
The game should not end and proceed.
_________________________________________________________________

6.K.2. TEST CASE, GAME VICTORY CHECK HAPPENS AFTER FALL RETREATS, VICTORY

The game should only check for a solo win (18 supply centres) after the fall retreat phase

Russia owns:
MOS, WAR, SEV, ANK, CON, SMY, RUM, BUL, GRE, SER, BUD, VIE, TRI, VEN, ROM, NAP, TUN [17 total]

Fall (empty MAR, empty WAR):
Russia:
A PIE-MAR
A BOH s GAL-SIL
A GAL-SIL

Germany:
A SIL H

Retreats:
A SIL-PRU

Expected Result:
The game should end in a Russian Victory.
Interesting, I hadn't seen 6.K yet.
Do you have a link Valis? I thought the original Kruijswijk version was kept up-to-date, apparently it isn't.

Obviously compliance is very important. At the same time, it's a tremendous time hog for problems that rarely occur. And in general, we are compliant. Nonetheless, it would be good to have an quick update when new DATCases come out.
Actually, Google seems to be unaware of 6.K too...
Really interested in a link now!
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
14 Apr 15 UTC
I made them up!
.... I don't know whether to admire or ridicule you for your geekiness :-P

Still, I've been wondering for a while why this isn't included in the DATC...
rmf (100 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
Who maintains the DATC, anyway? It should probably be on GitHub on some such collaborative thing, no? Then we could PR with 6.K.
The version that - AFAIK - is the official one is here:
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/L.B.Kruijswijk/

I've rarely seen it in any other form than this one, or being applied to an adjudicator. Don't think it's opened up collaboratively (oddly enough). Could be some google group I'm not aware of.
JECE (1248 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
A_Tin_Can: You're right; I don't see anything about victory conditions expect as it regards Hong Kong in the Colonial variant.

But there are important tests for Civil Disorder disbands which you were awesome enough to correct a few months back.
JECE (1248 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
except
JECE (1248 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
Lucas B. Kruijswijk created and is responsible for the DATC. He may have created an account here on webDiplomacy years back.
JECE (1248 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
It doesn't look like he's done anything with the DATC since publishing this:
http://diplom.org/Zine/S2009M/Kruijswijk/DipMath_Chp1.htm

You can find his e-mail address in that article if you would like to propose 6.K or anything else.

And yes, he does have an account here: userID=5958.
JECE (1248 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
Little did you all know that we have two gods among webDippers! Kestas and Lucas are both with us.
yebellz (729 D(G))
14 Apr 15 UTC
Edi Birsan has an account here as well, however I think he has since left long ago.


34 replies
Puddle (413 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Climate Change Deniers
I'm sure this has come up before, but just curious.
61 replies
Open
April GhostRatings
When do these usually come out?
7 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
13 Apr 15 UTC
Will You Be My Friend?
All of my games have ended and I'm looking for some friends, new and old, to play a game with. 25-36 hour phases WTA nonanon.
18 replies
Open
Balrog (219 D)
12 Apr 15 UTC
(+5)
Game of Thrones episode leak
Generally, I'm not the kind of a player who post on the forum, let alone start a new thread. (Although I do read almost all). This time I can't contain my excitement . 4 episodes of Game of Thrones season 5 has been leaked online and I am in a dilemma. I would want to watch those ASAP, but legally. At the same time it would be impossible to avoid spoilers for a month. Any insights on this?
Also +1 this if you got the news from here first :p
25 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
12 Apr 15 UTC
(+2)
Team 1768 makes it to the World Championships!
The FIRST (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc) team I mentor did well enough in regionals to make it to the World Championships in St Louis! If interested, see inside for more details about the team as well as a small favor.
10 replies
Open
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
12 Apr 15 UTC
Worst stats ever?
https://puu.sh/hbyJd/758c37fb04.png
5 replies
Open
josemurc (32640 D)
12 Apr 15 UTC
gunboating
Interested!
1 reply
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
12 Apr 15 UTC
Manchester Derby Result
wow. I have a few complaints with Clattenburg, but all the goals seemed legit. I suppose United is back with this 6 game winning streak.
5 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
12 Apr 15 UTC
no lies, some regrets EOG
post here for gameID=158557 EOG
9 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
12 Apr 15 UTC
Replacement needed live game
Germany 5 SCs high quality position
gameID=158557
7 replies
Open
ZS (211 D)
12 Apr 15 UTC
Surviving with 1 SC
Longest someone has survived with 1 SC


13 replies
Open
Syber (100 D)
12 Apr 15 UTC
Can't put orders
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=158076

Im turkey and I cant put orders for this build no matter what. Tried 4 different browsers across mobile and desktop to no avail. I click in save or ready and nothing happens...
9 replies
Open
Ges (292 D)
12 Apr 15 UTC
EOG good old gunboat-3
Fun game, folks! It was great to have not a single NMR. Peterwiggin and tomekperet in particular, very nice play. Stranger, you did some excellent dancing in the mid-late game.
2 replies
Open
Valis webDip Invitational 1 EOGs
gameID=155106

Boy is Valis going to be surprised.
40 replies
Open
Oneshot0813 (80 D)
12 Apr 15 UTC
New Modern Diplomacy Game Called " European Conflict-4"
The game is set to start in 2 days, and each phase length is 1 day 12 hours. Here is the link should you be willing to play.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=158549
0 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
10 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
Message from a redneck
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=490803234401060
9 replies
Open
Marlen (20 DX)
11 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
Most Ridiculous BS That TV Audiences Believed
What are some hilariously ridiculous things that television (and newspaper) fans actually believed? Here are some good ones off the top of my head that fit into this summary:
1. CNN says Isis lures western girls with nutella, emojis and kittens
2. Gadafi was giving viagra to his troops for his raping campaign
3. The Iraqi army while at war decided to make stopovers at hospitals to throw babies out of incubators and let them die on the the floor
32 replies
Open
What's the worst thing that ever happened to you after you ate Chinese food?
My wife got food poisoned from some "chicken" last night. I wanted to see what other fun experiences you guys have had eating Chinese take out.
7 replies
Open
cb6000 (100 D(S))
11 Apr 15 UTC
a question about bulgaria
On my board Bulgaria has an east coast and a south coast. On this site it has a north coast. How did this come to be? Thank you.
12 replies
Open
Marlen (20 DX)
10 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
South America Variant
I have no friends. So between my mom and dad and two siblings we play the 5-player South America map. I searched "Diplomacy South America Strategy" and only get Risk results. I am always the first to lose and my parents laugh every time and tell me to make myself useful and do the dishes while they enjoy a game with their real children. Any help?
9 replies
Open
Porthmeus (104 D)
11 Apr 15 UTC
Effects of Voting for a draw
What affect does voting for a draw have on the amount bet or value of the pot in a game?
3 replies
Open
jmspool (100 D)
11 Apr 15 UTC
Diplomacy mentioned in controversial Buzzfeed gaming post
Yes, you read that right. Buzzfeed somehow made a post about gaming controversial.

This is the post: http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/monopoly-sucks
You'll see that Diplomacy gets high marks.
6 replies
Open
yassem (2533 D)
08 Apr 15 UTC
Just next killing of a black man by white cop
And though all the arguments have already been spoken I am just honestly amazed that we don't a thread about it yet.
53 replies
Open
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
11 Apr 15 UTC
Putin wrong again of course
http://i.imgur.com/87Pcu6V.gifv
7 replies
Open
yassem (2533 D)
06 Apr 15 UTC
Rolling stones
Am I wrong here?
19 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
11 Apr 15 UTC
Star Wars: The Original Trilogy vs Prequels
time to see which ones of you I hate
14 replies
Open
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