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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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yassem (2533 D)
17 Apr 15 UTC
Liberland
How come we haven't yet talked about Liberland? Thoughts?
15 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
17 Apr 15 UTC
(+3)
Congratulations Rommeltastic!
Truly a god among men.
2 replies
Open
TruthTeller (0 DX)
17 Apr 15 UTC
I was banned on another account.
Hey all,

I know you probably don't give a crap. I don't expect you to really. I just want to vent about how inadequate the mods are. Me and a group of four friends live in the same house. We played the actual board a lot and we loved the game. We found out a number of us were going to be moving very soon, but we still wanted a way to do fun things together. We found this site.
28 replies
Open
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
17 Apr 15 UTC
The TMP Challenge
gameID=158856

I challenge TMP to a 7 way duel. Any others should join for this unique experience to get tickled whilst playing.
2 replies
Open
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
17 Apr 15 UTC
Urgent news from Devil-elopers
See Inside: The webDip Dev-e team has taken great pleasure in anouncing a possibly new feature for the site. Soon players may be able to list their relationship status and commit to in-game marriage. We here at webDipDev-e take great pride in our work and are excited to see how the community enjoys the new developments. - questions should be directed to myself, the webDip Dev-e chairman Mao, in my PM.
10 replies
Open
Jancarius (109 D)
16 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
Draw Votes
How many players must agree to a draw before it happens?
7 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
16 Apr 15 UTC
Y-F'ing-Y!!!
Yellow!!! Haven't seen you in like for-fucking-eve!!! How's it going dude?
Hell...last time I saw you around was probably...huh....when I survived the Great WebDip Purge!!!
How the hell are you, my friend?!?!!?
19 replies
Open
OB_Gyn_Kenobi (888 D)
15 Apr 15 UTC
Another Dip variant idea
I call it "Chain of Command". I'm interested in getting opinions/feedback. GB lovers probably won't like this one.
31 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
16 Apr 15 UTC
Do Human 'races' exist?
www.sciencealert.com/watch-do-human-races-really-exist
Discuss.
26 replies
Open
captainmeme (1632 DMod)
15 Apr 15 UTC
Blind Diplomacy Gunboat EOG
After 16 in-game years (4 months real time) the Blind Diplomacy Gunboat game has ended, with Austria (Chumbles) achieving a 19SC victory!

Maps can be found here: http://imgur.com/a/fG0MI
11 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
16 Apr 15 UTC
This is staggeringly relevant
as above, below.
35 replies
Open
quarryman (5466 D)
16 Apr 15 UTC
NY City to NY State... is not a bug?
3 or 4 times I have seen moving a fleet from NYCity to NYState or viceversa. Is that a bug, isnt it?
5 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
16 Apr 15 UTC
AERA-Chicago
Anybody here going to AERA-Chicago this weekend? Would be great to meet some folks from webdip at AERA. We will be discreet. :)
5 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
16 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
Who to censor?
As above, below.
7 replies
Open
Randomizer (722 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
(+4)
World Hypocrisy about Arab Deaths
The world isn't condemning the Saudi Arabia led attacks into Yemen at the same level as when Israel defended itself against Hamas. Going after the enemy, they have hit hospitals, schools, a refugee camp and neighborhoods, according to U.N. officials. This is without being threaten, but just to prevent Iran from going in power.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-widens-role-in-saudi-led-campaign-against-yemen-rebels-1428882967
22 replies
Open
TrPrado (461 D)
15 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
It's Official
I have been on webDip for a full year as of today. Which also happens to be the 150th anniversary of Abraham Lincoln's death.
4 replies
Open
SplitDiplomat (101466 D)
26 Mar 15 UTC
New high pot top gunboaters' game(s)
Is there an interest among top 20 (or so) gunboat players to start another top game (or set of games) with usual top gb games settings?
Games starting as we get the crew,higher ranking gets in...
39 replies
Open
yassem (2533 D)
15 Apr 15 UTC
Wrinkle your brain a little bit...
By now it probably gone quite viral, but maybe not all of you have seen it yet, and it's a good one:
http://www.sciencealert.com/images/articles/MathsProblem_1024.jpg
14 replies
Open
JimTheGrey (968 D(S))
07 Apr 15 UTC
Chicago-Area Tournaments Coming Up
The ninth annual CODCon Open Diplomacy tournament (http://windycityweasels.org/codcon9) is this weekend at the College of DuPage in west suburban Glen Ellyn. Weasel Moot IX (http://windycityweasels.org/wm9) will be June 13-14 at the University of Illinois-Chicago. Hope to see you there!
5 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
14 Apr 15 UTC
(+2)
Announcement
I'm standing as The Green Party candidate in the local elections on 7th May in the UK. I know this will concern some of you, but rest assured, I have zero chance of winning and being put in charge of anything.
66 replies
Open
Tarsil (7 DX)
15 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
Petra to Nabatea
Does anyone know why you can't move afleet from Petra to Nabatea on the ancients map when they share a coast line and adjacnecy ??
2 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2736 D(B))
14 Apr 15 UTC
Four Greatest
Pick the four greatest baseball players ever on your favorite team and the four greatest living baseball players.
79 replies
Open
rmf (100 D)
10 Mar 15 UTC
Ancient Mediterranean Gunboat Series
I like gunboat, and I usually enjoy AncMed. Let's try this: 5 people, 5 games, gunboat, WTA, 25h/phase, 8 D. Sign up below.
23 replies
Open
yassem (2533 D)
15 Apr 15 UTC
USA is becoming the new reality show...
I don't know how media in other countries or portraying the conflict between Afro-Americans and the police, but in Poland it's exactly that - a huge reality show.
1 reply
Open
Vikesrussel (839 D)
15 Apr 15 UTC
Please look
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=158273&msgCountryID=5
In this game. Does anyone think something is majorly wrong with the movements?
E and F have no enemies . G and I going East while F and E going east...
R is not a good player. Anyone else think this game is very fishy?
3 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 DX)
10 Apr 15 UTC
Where some of our favorite forum members?
Nigeebaby and Putin33, can't say I cared for either of them, but they were certainly entertaining.

Where did they go?
54 replies
Open
yassem (2533 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
Canceling games due to cheating...
I have two questions concerning the mechanics of canceling games due to cheating.
25 replies
Open
KingCyrus (511 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
Greatest NHL Goaltender
Who was the greatest goaltender in NHL history?

Requirements: Must have played in the NHL. All statistics used must be from the NHL (sorry Tretiak)
13 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (1307 D)
11 Apr 15 UTC
Pupil changes teacher's desktop wallpaper, gets arrested.
Lol, whut?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/04/10/florida_middle_schooler_arrested_charged_with_hacking_cybercrimes.html
29 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Hypothetical
What if a country were to get to 18 SCs, but a retreats phase would let one of his opponents retreat into one of his SCs? would he win automatically, or do the retreats count?
schocker2 (100 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Retreats count and sc's are counted in the build phase....no win
A_Tin_Can (2234 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
The retreats *should* be processed before the game win check is done, but if this situation happens on webdip, there is a long standing bug where the game can (and will) be won before retreats.

I think the fix is not very difficult, but any change to the adjudicator needs to be VERY carefully tested- and it's annoying to test without a game that's in the right state. Speaking of- if anyone sees a game where this is possible (or about to be), please PM me and I'll take a snapshot of the database which I can use to test the fix.

~webdip dev team lead
rmf (100 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Does that mean this situation is not in the DATC?
Nescio (1059 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Supply centres ought to be counted in the "builds" phase; unfortunately webDip does it slightly differently: supply centre ownership is determined after every non-Spring phase (thus Autumn Diplomacy, Autumn Retreats, Autumn Builds); therefore it's possible to win a game prior to the retreats are processed, which strictly speaking is incorrect.

(I had a quick look at https://github.com/kestasjk/webDiplomacy/blob/master/gamemaster/game.php which seems to confirm this.)
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
thanks, though it was just a hypothetical, I haven't actually seen it
JECE (1322 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
rmf: The relevant sections are missing from the DATC tests. I mentioned this ages ago:
threadID=829390
Nescio (1059 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
It isn't just hypothetical. Games often end prior to the retreats phase. Although the retreats would often not have made any difference, e.g. gameID=156716 was clearly finished before the retreats phase had started, which is incorrect.
Puddle (428 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Shouldn't this be an easy fix? Why couldn;t you add a check to whatever mechanism checks win conditions that prevents that check from running unless it is the end of a build phase?
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
13 Apr 15 UTC
Programs are setup as a series of functions that issue commands to one another. If you change the location of a win check, it could have adverse effects on a function that assumes a check has not been made and do all sorts of nasty things, like infinite loops or small bugs that cause other problems.

Assume that a program is a very carefully orchestrated house of cards. If you move something from one place, it can have effects in other areas when you change supports and cause the whole thing to crash, or simply cause small parts to act strangely.
uclabb (589 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
So what you are saying is that web dip is coded poorly?
steephie22 (182 D(S))
13 Apr 15 UTC
If you think a very carefully orchestrated house of cards is built poorly, yes.
JamesYanik (548 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
To everyone out there who replies to every single glitch in a website as "shouldn't that be an easy fix?" You don't know sourceforge and the site's programming. ATC does a great job so chill.
Puddle (428 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
I'm just genuinely curious as to what kind of problems would arise.

@Steephie, I understand the basic way that programming works, as I've used some software that requires all commands be in the form of code (statistical software mostly). It definitely seems like not every piece of the software should be so interconnected to every other part than any change results in a cascading stream of failures and collisions. Is that view simply not realistic/practical? Or is it not so much the code running the site itself as the infrastructure within which that code runs?
jbalcorn (429 D)
13 Apr 15 UTC
Running tests to make sure that a chance does not cause any regressive problems is just good coding. This is an important but very rare situation. Basically, he needs a game where it's about to happen so he can test against the database snapshot. It SHOULD be a simple fix. Nasty bugs are often created by what SHOULD be an easy fix.

ATC is only being as careful with his production code as anyone should be. We know of one example in thousands of games that were affected.
yebellz (729 D(G))
13 Apr 15 UTC
Think of this as a "house rule", like being able to talk during retreats and builds.
A_Tin_Can (2234 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
(+6)
I'm going to write a fairly long answer here, because "isn't this easy??" comes up a lot. Before I do, though, if you think what I'm about to describe *is* easy, then I'd like to point out that webdiplomacy is open source, and we welcome well-tested and well-written contributions. The github link is at the bottom of every page.

Firstly, usually code changes aren't actually as easy as one would expect - there's a difference between how easy something is to implement if we have to have it done RIGHT NOW, and how easy something is to implement if we want the code to still be clean and easy to maintain later.

Think of it like doing the dishes after dinner- sure, if I want to clear the table, it's easy to just put the dishes in the sink. But, if I keep doing that every time I want to use the table after dinner, over time the dishes stack up - and not only can I not clear the table, but I have a lot of work to do if I want to use the kitchen again (including cleaning dishes with dried-on mystery food).

Code is like that - getting something done now is easy, but getting something done in a clean way that isn't going to cause problems later down the track requires a bit more thought. WebDip is actually extremely well written - Kestas has put a lot of effort into the design, which means that maintaining the code and adding new features is a much nicer experience than it usually is with php projects (for those of you who don't know - although I've contributed most of the recent code updates, webDip is still 99.9% Kestas' work. And calling it a house of cards does a great disservice to all the hard work that he's put in). Sure, Kestas would probably be the first to tell you that the code isn't *all* clean, but as someone who's read a lot of his code, it is *generally* very clean. And even when it isn't, it's still easy to read.

In this case, the code change is (I think) actually pretty easy. I think the fix is probably two lines - one to remove the call to change the ownership of the supply centres from the current location in the adjudicator, and one to put it somewhere else (probably in the code that progresses the turn to the build phase).

I think those changes are probably all it takes. The key here is *probably*. We have nearly 2000 users currently playing in games - let's say I overlook something in making the change, and now supply centres don't change ownership correctly in some rare case (say, for example, when supply centres change hands but no-one has any builds - a bug that we could absolutely introduce - though I don't intend to).

We're not going to ruin a whole bunch of games just because I thought that the code was *probably* right after a fix. If we're changing the adjudicator, we're going to be very careful about testing it. As jbalcorn points out, this kind of dedication to testing is what's expected in software development. Unfortunately, webdip doesn't have any automated tests outside of the DATC, which means that we're relying on manual tests. And manual tests take time.

Even then, yes, it's not a *lot* of time. We're probably looking at an afternoon's work, max. However, webdip is a hobby project - no one is paid to work on it (and we plan to keep it that way). Everyone who works on the site does so in between work, life, and other hobbies. Working on the site includes things like new features (RR and the upcoming ability to add games you're not in to your home page), bug fixes, and borrowing features from our sister site, vDip (this includes the recent move previews and ability to mark press as unread). Finding four hours to fix and test a bug like this means that there are four hours not spent on other things. Adjudicator changes take more time because we're much more thorough about testing them.

Don't think that this isn't a priority, though - Hellenic Riot and the mod team kindly spent a few hours last night helping me set up some tests for this. We're working on getting this fixed, along with all the other improvements we have planned (including working on modernising the site). The next year should be an exciting time for webdip. But, don't expect this change tomorrow.

To see what we've been up to, we have a list of recent changes that you can see at http://webdiplomacy.net/recentchanges.php , and don't forget, we welcome code contributions in github pull requests. One of my goals for the year is to grow the dev team - please drop me a PM if you know how to use php/mysql/git and you're interested in helping out.
2ndWhiteLine (2736 D(B))
14 Apr 15 UTC
(+1)
Thank you for that post TC. Good to clear the air.

Let me reiterate the most important part of what TC just said. This is a site run by volunteers because we're passionate about the game and the community here on the site. All the mods (well, except HR) have real lives and real jobs. TC works on improvements on this site *in addition* to his real job and real life. Plus, he's only been on the team since last summer (or winter for him). Check out the site improvements page to see what he's managed to accomplish in that short time. Look at the save and ready buttons!

If you really want to contribute, then by all means PM TC or one of the admins.
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
The code is written amazingly well, is extremely clean, and has very very few problems. As Tim mentioned the reason we don't make changes to game logic is simple, the impact if we mess up is massive. So any change has to be done with extreme care.
cardcollector (1270 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=117469#gamePanel
Perfect example. I was actually very surprised when I won that game.

So to reiterate, on the site you win if you have 18 SC's, even if someone can take away a center via a retreat. Of course, this is also wrong based on the original rules.
JECE (1322 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
A_Tin_Can: Thanks for the long explanation! You remind me of Kestas in how eloquently you responded.

I'm still unclear about this, though: are you planning to use the missing DATC test sections I mentioned in threadID=829390 to test this change?
A_Tin_Can (2234 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
As far as I'm aware, this case isn't covered by the DATC, so I don't think it would help.

I would like to add the missing sections to the automated tests, but tests outside the Diplomacy phase unfortunately require quite a bit of code restructuring. It doesn't really seem worth the time investment at the moment - though it's something I would like to do someday.
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
14 Apr 15 UTC
Take these, it's dangerous to go alone.

___________________________________
6.K. TEST CASES, GAME VICTORY CHECKS

6.K.1. TEST CASE, GAME VICTORY CHECK HAPPENS AFTER FALL RETREATS, NON-VICTORY

The game should only check for a solo win (18 supply centres) after the fall retreat phase

Russia owns:
MOS, WAR, SEV, ANK, CON, SMY, RUM, BUL, GRE, SER, BUD, VIE, TRI, VEN, ROM, NAP, TUN [17 total]

Fall (empty MAR, empty WAR):
Russia:
A PIE-MAR
A BOH s GAL-SIL
A GAL-SIL

Germany:
A SIL H

Retreats:
A SIL-WAR

Expected Result:
The game should not end and proceed.
_________________________________________________________________

6.K.2. TEST CASE, GAME VICTORY CHECK HAPPENS AFTER FALL RETREATS, VICTORY

The game should only check for a solo win (18 supply centres) after the fall retreat phase

Russia owns:
MOS, WAR, SEV, ANK, CON, SMY, RUM, BUL, GRE, SER, BUD, VIE, TRI, VEN, ROM, NAP, TUN [17 total]

Fall (empty MAR, empty WAR):
Russia:
A PIE-MAR
A BOH s GAL-SIL
A GAL-SIL

Germany:
A SIL H

Retreats:
A SIL-PRU

Expected Result:
The game should end in a Russian Victory.
Interesting, I hadn't seen 6.K yet.
Do you have a link Valis? I thought the original Kruijswijk version was kept up-to-date, apparently it isn't.

Obviously compliance is very important. At the same time, it's a tremendous time hog for problems that rarely occur. And in general, we are compliant. Nonetheless, it would be good to have an quick update when new DATCases come out.
Actually, Google seems to be unaware of 6.K too...
Really interested in a link now!
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
14 Apr 15 UTC
I made them up!
.... I don't know whether to admire or ridicule you for your geekiness :-P

Still, I've been wondering for a while why this isn't included in the DATC...
rmf (100 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
Who maintains the DATC, anyway? It should probably be on GitHub on some such collaborative thing, no? Then we could PR with 6.K.
The version that - AFAIK - is the official one is here:
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/L.B.Kruijswijk/

I've rarely seen it in any other form than this one, or being applied to an adjudicator. Don't think it's opened up collaboratively (oddly enough). Could be some google group I'm not aware of.
JECE (1322 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
A_Tin_Can: You're right; I don't see anything about victory conditions expect as it regards Hong Kong in the Colonial variant.

But there are important tests for Civil Disorder disbands which you were awesome enough to correct a few months back.
JECE (1322 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
except
JECE (1322 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
Lucas B. Kruijswijk created and is responsible for the DATC. He may have created an account here on webDiplomacy years back.
JECE (1322 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
It doesn't look like he's done anything with the DATC since publishing this:
http://diplom.org/Zine/S2009M/Kruijswijk/DipMath_Chp1.htm

You can find his e-mail address in that article if you would like to propose 6.K or anything else.

And yes, he does have an account here: userID=5958.
JECE (1322 D)
14 Apr 15 UTC
Little did you all know that we have two gods among webDippers! Kestas and Lucas are both with us.
yebellz (729 D(G))
14 Apr 15 UTC
Edi Birsan has an account here as well, however I think he has since left long ago.


34 replies
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