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Socrates Dissatisfied (1727 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
(+8)
Maybe I'm being over sensitive...
But there seems to be a fair bit of misogyny in some posts. All in jest, but still, some posts that are misogynistic in nature. I'm curious as to whether there would be so many if there were more women on the site.
219 replies
Open
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
16 Jul 14 UTC
Vsauce?
So I am an avid viewer of the youtube channel Vsauce and was curious if anyone else watches it?
3 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
14 Jul 14 UTC
English Writing Skills Thread
Discuss skills that help you write good prose and poetry.

I'll start:
If you are trying to write an argumentative piece, it helps a lot to be concise. A long-winded piece that just says the same thing in ten different ways just leads readers astray.
OutsideSmoker27 (204 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
Good poetry should implicitly suggest more than it should explicitly state.
pangloss (363 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
I find it helps to read what you've written aloud.
Kallen (1157 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Have others proof read and critic for you
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Read, read the people who've mastered the craft, write, and write a lot.

That's really the best I can say (separate this advice from its dubious, verbose source.)

;)
SYnapse (0 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
(+2)
IF there is a gun on the wall in the first chapter, it must be fired in the second.
H.H (100 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Show, don't tell.
kasimax (243 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
@synapse: you're mistaken, it's the third.
SYnapse (0 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
A flashback reverse rule that I created is that if a gun is fired in the first chapter, it must be hanging on the wall in the second.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
14 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
An essay should be like a girl's skirt: long enough to cover the subject, but short enough to keep it interesting.
SYnapse (0 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Writing question: what are good things to make a character travel?
SYnapse (0 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
I mean reasons.
kasimax (243 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
you can't just generalize that. really depends on what you're writing.
SYnapse (0 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Well I was thinking that the cliche stereotype for a character travelling is to retrieve some long lost item or regain a magical power or something like that (e.g. to throw the ring into Mount Doom). I was looking for more realistic reasons why characters would travel across the world if not to find/do something magical.
kasimax (243 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
i don't really know what you're talking about though. are you simply looking for reasons why a person travels?
SYnapse (0 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Yes, in fiction. That doesn't involve magical artifacts.
Same reasons people travel in ordinary life, I suppose? A new job that requires you to move (or, even better, you find failure every place you try and have to keep pulling up stakes and moving on to the next place), taking a vacation, fearing for your safety where you were, change of life situation means moving to be closer to family. All a bit pedestrian, I suppose, but they ARE less than magical.

You could also set your story in the midst of a nomadic tribe.
Putin33 (111 D)
15 Jul 14 UTC
Fiction writers need to stop with the incessant dialogue. If you're going to write a play, then write a play.
SYnapse (0 DX)
15 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
Errr, Putin, people have conversations. Some of those are central to a story. War and Peace is a good example of extensive yet necessary dialogue.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
15 Jul 14 UTC
What SYnapse said, people in real life don't just hop from plot point to plot point in conversations with one another, as it were...what's more, in an era where texting, Internet chatting and communication in general is paramount, a good novel reflecting the times should reflect the way in which we communicate, incessant and inane eccentricities and all.
Putin33 (111 D)
15 Jul 14 UTC
Except it's hard to do dialogue well and most people don't. It's repetitive, it's stilted, it doesn't seem like a conversation anybody would have, people turn into talking heads, no plot is advanced, no nothing. I find this is particularly bad with science fiction writing. It's either a paragraph of gear-head gibberish or very halting, wooden dialogue that doesn't add anything to the story.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
15 Jul 14 UTC
I think part of that's just an inherent problem with science fiction since--to generalize--often times, a sci-fi writer has to world-build, but on the other hand, it's pretty boring to give chapter after chapter of exposition on how this world is structured and works, so instead they try and have characters describe these artificial creations and worlds of theirs, thereby filling the dialogue with technobabble and likewise making it stilted.

I think really good writers of dialogue either blend lines seamlessly into their stories and make the dialogue believable, or else make them so outrageously one-liner-y that they become fun for their own sake in that way. Oscar Wilde's a perfect example of the latter...there are plenty of speeches and exchanges in his plays and "The Picture of Dorian Gray" that don't sound naturalistic, but are so quotable that you almost wish people COULD speak like that, and form something so witty or memorable on the spot. I don't think Shaw's as good as Wilde at the one-liner (good, just not as good) but his conversations sound more like conversations...with some exceptions.

In terms of just novelists...I think Thackeray has some good dialogue (even if his expository prose parts are sometimes overkill), and then Steinbeck was pretty true to the speech and feelings of his time in his dialogue, I think. Evelyn Waugh has very crisp dialogue as well.

I think you put too much importance on plot--I'd argue that especially today, as long as you're A. Developing your characters/something related to your characters in the dialogue and B. Your characters are compelling, plot can take a backseat to characterization and conversation for a little while. I think a lot of bad dialogue comes from trying to cram too much plot into too short a book or space, and so characters become Exposition/Explanation Machines, rather than characters...I'd far rather the opposite--a more simplified plot and far more time spent with the characters developing and talking about things people actually talk about, and in the way people do that, which means there needs to be digressions and halts and verbal ticks and inside jokes and all of that, until they feel so familiar to one another that they feel familiar to us.
SYnapse (0 DX)
15 Jul 14 UTC
At the end of the day novel writing is still storytelling. If you were telling the story to a child you would probably say "then they decided to go to the ruins", an adult wants a bit more detail and so you need to show that conversation. Otherwise if they just turn up at the ruins it doesn't make sense. On the other hand, "then they talked about how they felt for a few hours" can probably be left out as it's not part of the story.

You have to be careful that you're still storytelling rather than writing for the sake of it. If you're just writing dialogue and description that's not part of a story, it's the literary equivalent of jerking off sometimes.
Putin33 (111 D)
15 Jul 14 UTC
A great example of this is Azimov, who is sadly one of the better sci-fi writers.
His novels are just nothing but dialogue and it's just talking heads back and forth. In one section where Hari Seldon is being interrogated there's literally just Q & A sentences for pages upon pages like stenography. Gaal and Seldon talk like robots.

This is but a small sample.


"But of course not. This is unprintable. Do you suppose the Imperium could expose its
shakiness in this manner. That is a very simple demonstration in psychohistory. But some of
our results have leaked out among the aristocracy."
"That's bad."
"Not necessarily. All is taken into account."
"But is that why I'm being investigated?"
"Yes. Everything about my project is being investigated."
"Are you in danger, sir?"
"Oh, yes. There is probability of 1.7% that I will be executed, but of course that will not stop the
project. We have taken that into account as well. Well, never mind. You will meet me, I
suppose, at the University tomorrow?"
"I will,"

SYnapse (0 DX)
15 Jul 14 UTC
Here's an example of fantastic dialogue from Tolstoy:

"Is it true that Moscow is called 'Holy Moscow'? How many churches are there in Moscow?" he asked.

And receiving the reply that there were more than two hundred churches, he remarked:
"Why such a quantity of churches?"

"The Russians are very devout," replied Balashev.

"But a large number of monasteries and churches is always a sign of the backwardness of a people," said Napoleon, turning to Caulaincourt for appreciation of this remark.

Balashev respectfully ventured to disagree with the French Emperor.
"Every country has its own character," said he.

"But nowhere in Europe is there anything like that," said Napoleon.

"I beg Your Majesty's pardon," returned Balashev, "besides Russia there is Spain, where there are also many churches and monasteries."

This reply of Balashev's, which hinted at the recent defeats of the French in Spain, was
much appreciated when he related it at Alexander's court, but it was not much appreciated at Napoleon's dinner, where it passed unnoticed.
Putin33 (111 D)
15 Jul 14 UTC
Fantastic is a stretch. But I'll say it's an improvement.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
15 Jul 14 UTC
Granted, I haven't read "War and Peace," and of course it's probably better in the original Russian, but that snippet of dialogue, while serviceable and quick to make its point, doesn't seem too "fantastic" to me.

Here's the last couple pages' worth of D.H. Lawrence's "Women in Love." I don't usually think of Lawrence as a master of dialogue, but this is, I think, a fantastic ending to a fantastic book, easily one of my Top 10 of all-time (I think I put it in my Top 10 when I made that Top 50 list, I know it'd be this, Sons and Lovers or Lady Chatterley's Lover from him...Sons and Lovers is great and Lady Chatterley's Lover is more important, but I think Women in Love is his best cover to cover work.)

In fact, the ONLY strike I'd have against the 2011 BBC miniseries for this story would be that it leaves this last exchange out, and ends with Gerald's death, more or less...and I've never understood why. Why cut out the reaction by both Ursula and Birkin, their conflicting reactions towards Gerald and towards one another here is arguably the major premise of the book summed up...and it was a bold premise in 1920 and remains an important one to think about in 2011, or 2014.

***********************************************************************************************

Birkin went home again to Gerald. He went into the room, and sat down on the bed. Dead, dead and cold!

Imperial Caesar dead, and turned to clay
Would stop a hole to keep the wind away.

There was no response from that which had been Gerald. Strange, congealed, icy substance—no more. No more!

Terribly weary, Birkin went away, about the day's business. He did it all quietly, without bother. To rant, to rave, to be tragic, to make situations—it was all too late. Best be quiet, and bear one's soul in patience and in fullness.

But when he went in again, at evening, to look at Gerald between the candles, because of his heart's hunger, suddenly his heart contracted, his own candle all but fell from his hand, as, with a strange whimpering cry, the tears broke out. He sat down in a chair, shaken by a sudden access. Ursula who had followed him, recoiled aghast from him, as he sat with sunken head and body convulsively shaken, making a strange, horrible sound of tears.

'I didn't want it to be like this—I didn't want it to be like this,' he cried to himself. Ursula could but think of the Kaiser's: 'Ich habe as nicht gewollt.' She looked almost with horror on Birkin.

Suddenly he was silent. But he sat with his head dropped, to hide his face. Then furtively he wiped his face with his fingers. Then suddenly he lifted his head, and looked straight at Ursula, with dark, almost vengeful eyes.

'He should have loved me,' he said. 'I offered him.'

She, afraid, white, with mute lips answered:

'What difference would it have made!'

'It would!' he said. 'It would.'

He forgot her, and turned to look at Gerald. With head oddly lifted, like a man who draws his head back from an insult, half haughtily, he watched the cold, mute, material face. It had a bluish cast. It sent a shaft like ice through the heart of the living man. Cold, mute, material! Birkin remembered how once Gerald had clutched his hand, with a warm, momentaneous grip of final love. For one second—then let go again, let go for ever. If he had kept true to that clasp, death would not have mattered. Those who die, and dying still can love, still believe, do not die. They live still in the beloved. Gerald might still have been living in the spirit with Birkin, even after death. He might have lived with his friend, a further life.

But now he was dead, like clay, like bluish, corruptible ice. Birkin looked at the pale fingers, the inert mass. He remembered a dead stallion he had seen: a dead mass of maleness, repugnant. He remembered also the beautiful face of one whom he had loved, and who had died still having the faith to yield to the mystery. That dead face was beautiful, no one could call it cold, mute, material. No one could remember it without gaining faith in the mystery, without the soul's warming with new, deep life-trust.

And Gerald! The denier! He left the heart cold, frozen, hardly able to beat. Gerald's father had looked wistful, to break the heart: but not this last terrible look of cold, mute Matter. Birkin watched and watched.

Ursula stood aside watching the living man stare at the frozen face of the dead man. Both faces were unmoved and unmoving. The candle-flames flickered in the frozen air, in the intense silence.

'Haven't you seen enough?' she said.

He got up.

'It's a bitter thing to me,' he said.

'What—that he's dead?' she said.

His eyes just met hers. He did not answer.

'You've got me,' she said.

He smiled and kissed her.

'If I die,' he said, 'you'll know I haven't left you.'

'And me?' she cried.

'And you won't have left me,' he said. 'We shan't have any need to despair, in death.'

She took hold of his hand.

'But need you despair over Gerald?' she said.

'Yes,' he answered.

They went away. Gerald was taken to England, to be buried. Birkin and Ursula accompanied the body, along with one of Gerald's brothers. It was the Crich brothers and sisters who insisted on the burial in England. Birkin wanted to leave the dead man in the Alps, near the snow. But the family was strident, loudly insistent.

Gudrun went to Dresden. She wrote no particulars of herself. Ursula stayed at the Mill with Birkin for a week or two. They were both very quiet.

'Did you need Gerald?' she asked one evening.

'Yes,' he said.

'Aren't I enough for you?' she asked.

'No,' he said. 'You are enough for me, as far as a woman is concerned. You are all women to me. But I wanted a man friend, as eternal as you and I are eternal.'

'Why aren't I enough?' she said. 'You are enough for me. I don't want anybody else but you. Why isn't it the same with you?'

'Having you, I can live all my life without anybody else, any other sheer intimacy. But to make it complete, really happy, I wanted eternal union with a man too: another kind of love,' he said.

'I don't believe it,' she said. 'It's an obstinacy, a theory, a perversity.'

'Well—' he said.

'You can't have two kinds of love. Why should you!'

It seems as if I can't,' he said. 'Yet I wanted it.'

'You can't have it, because it's false, impossible,' she said.

'I don't believe that,' he answered.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
15 Jul 14 UTC
^That last exchange = BRILLIANT...seriously underrated as far as final exchanges/lines for a book is concerned.

They preceded, by about 6 years, the famous ending to Hemingway's "The Sun Also Rises"--

"“Oh, Jake,” Brett said, “we could have had such a damned good time together.”
Ahead was a mounted policeman in khaki directing traffic. He raised his baton. The car slowed suddenly pressing Brett against me.
“Yes,” I said. “Isn’t it pretty to think so?”

For my money, I think Lawrence's ending, exploring the complex sexual politics in the world of post-WWI Europe, is far more poignant.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Jul 14 UTC
No wonder you hate Orange is the New Black and Hunger Games. You're a fan of DH Lawrence.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Jul 14 UTC
"Those who die, and dying still can love, still believe, do not die. They live still in the beloved. Gerald might still have been living in the spirit with Birkin, even after death. He might have lived with his friend, a further life."

This is great writing? DH Lawrence is as turgid as they come.


29 replies
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
15 Jul 14 UTC
Sandbox
I used to play on an online diplomacy site that had a sandbox. Is it possible to get one on this site, even if just for classic. I looked on the todo list and saw nothing in reference to it.
4 replies
Open
Vikesrussel (839 D)
15 Jul 14 UTC
Un pause please.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=143190
Please Un pause the game.

Russia wont do it.
1 reply
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Obiwan where are you?!
I just finished watching Joss Whedon's production of Much Ado About Nothing and wanted to learn if you had seen it and what your impression was if you had. I quite enjoyed it and felt it was, at the least, comparable to Branagh's version.
19 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Dead Children = Liberal Compassion
Truth in Action - One of the brilliant ideas of Libtards is "open borders"...it's compassionate. Everyone deserves blah blah blah. Yeah, but there are CONSEQUENCES: ** Dead CHILDREN on the shores of the Rio Grande **

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/07/report-small-lifeless-dead-children-found-washed-up-along-riverbank-of-rio-grande/
153 replies
Open
King Atom (100 D)
13 Jul 14 UTC
Millions of Germans just wet themselves...
...and probably plenty of other Europeans too...

Congrats and all.
2 replies
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
15 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
Little Known Casual Board Games That Are Excellent
Getting some opinions
47 replies
Open
CommanderByron (801 D(S))
15 Jul 14 UTC
England?
So I have played maybe 100+ games of classic and never have I played as England. Now for the first time here I am. What are some good strategies?
18 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
15 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
What it means to be human
A question and some thoughts
13 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2736 D(B))
14 Jul 14 UTC
Shopping
In an effort to make this site more female friendly, I'd like to discuss where us WebDippers buy clothing, household goods, and anything else relevant.
97 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
15 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
I SAW THE BANNER
I SAW THE DAMN COMMUNITY FREEDOM OF SPEECH BANNER THINGY WHAT'S GOING ON ZULTAR
8 replies
Open
SplitDiplomat (101466 D)
11 Jun 14 UTC
New Top 7 GB game
The game is about to start so an info for the
participants only,about the final roster;
50 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
14 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
Look how modern the Church of England is...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28300618

I can't wait until they officially include LGBT Bishops .... and officially outlaw paedophilia, then I might start taking them a bit more serious
30 replies
Open
tvrocks (388 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
how to play Italy, france, and germany
All other countries have been done so i've decided to make a thread for the last 3 to hopefully make it so that there won't be any more on this topic. (though i am at fault for one of them)
5 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
14 Jul 14 UTC
What are "agreed hypothetical facts"
There is a case going on in the UK about whether our surveillance service have broken any laws. As they can't confirm or deny what they have done the case is proceeding based on "agreed hypothetical facts". Is this bending the language too far?
21 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
How to Play...
A hot blonde...regardless of coutnry of origin. Go.
15 replies
Open
mollie bean (102 D)
13 Jul 14 UTC
doctrine of shock
New ppsc game please join
3 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Happy 14-Juillet
Vive La France! What is everyone doing for La Fete Nationale?
7 replies
Open
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Troll Supergroup
This thread is to hail the coming of the troll supergroup

1 reply
Open
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
07 Jul 14 UTC
Chaqa Outreach
Gentlemen: Let's stage an intervention for our most troubled member, userID=30476

Why does Chaqa hate?
39 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
13 Jul 14 UTC
(+2)
Germany
World Cup Champions
39 replies
Open
Al Swearengen (0 DX)
14 Jul 14 UTC
Overflow Thread
This is the overflow thread.
4 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
14 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
Women Bishops
Finally women bishops in the Church of England, about time.
3 replies
Open
tvrocks (388 D)
12 Jul 14 UTC
How to play england
I've played as england a lot lately and have realized that i'm bad at it. So how exactly can someone do well as england?
14 replies
Open
mapleleaf (0 DX)
04 Jul 14 UTC
(+3)
americans need to answer.....
When will Palestinians get THEIR Fourth of July?
306 replies
Open
Crazy Anglican (1075 D)
14 Jul 14 UTC
WTA games
Not to comment on ongoing games, but I haven't played very many.
5 replies
Open
Ogion (3817 D)
13 Jul 14 UTC
Quick question: accessing PMs?
Hey folks. I've never figured out how to get to the Messages page so i can look at old PMs and send them. What am I missing here?
3 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
13 Jul 14 UTC
How to Play
With all these How to Play X (insert country) threads going around why not just get down to the simpler question how to play and thoughts about the game.
16 replies
Open
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