Hear! Hear! What a great achievement by Ichiro.

Sure, and I have no qualms with including other people (except maybe Jigger Statz, whose stats seem rather jiggered) in the 4000 hit club. I would argue that Japan is a bit more competitive than the minors though, and I'll also point out that Mr. Rose gets no place in the hall of fame, though that's another issue entirely.

I really hope he manages to get 3000 MLB hits, just so that he can gave that too, but I somehow doubt that that's going to happen.

Ichiro was my favorite player growing up as a kid, especially while he was on the mariner's. I loved playing with him in Backyard Baseball :D Nice job Ichiro!

Yeah, Rose screwed himself by betting on baseball. But one has ot wonder why PEDs get banned for the rest of the season, but Rose's gambling addiction (he never bet against a team he was on, only for them to win, so not like he could throw a game) got a lifetime ban. I guess betting on your own horse is against baseballs rules, but doping the horse to give it an unfair advantage is not nearly as bad in baseball's eyes.

I don't like including Japanese league stats because the Japanese league engages in a lot of chicanery. Witness how hard they tried to keep Sadaharu Oh as their all time greatest single season home run hitter (they made a gentleman's agreement among all the teams to intentional walk anyone who came close to the record).

Except that Ichiro had his first 1200 hits there, not his last, so that's less likely to be done. I could go off on a long mathematical rant about shorter seasons and smaller ballparks and more focus on defense, concluding that he'd probably be just around 4000 hits now anyway, but instead I'll let Jeff Sullivan do the talking, because Jeff Sullivan says it best: http://www.ussmariner.com/2013/08/22/4000/

Oh, and Draug, the PED abusers aren't getting into the HOF either, and you can't say with any certainty that assholes like Rose or Cobb wouldn't have used PEDs if it had been an option, while Ichiro had the option and almost certainly did it.

Well, the hit king is Rose. I doubt, despite MLBs apparent hatred of Rose, thatvthey will allow the Japanese league hits to count towards that number.

And if Japanese parks are so much smaller, doesn't that make hitting homeruns easier and result.in an.inflated hit count? Just seems kind of logical.

But the PEDers will be back next season. They didn't get lifetime bans for betting *for* their team to win.

Didn't*

Of course they won't allow Ichiro's totals to count officially, but it's still an amazing accomplishment that deserves appropriate recognition. Read the link I posted.

Smaller makes homeruns easier, but it also leads to lower BABIP (batting average on balls in play) because of a decrease in space between fielders. As Ichiro was never much of a power hitter, it seems pretty clear that that would negatively affect his stats. Note how little his performance only dropped slightly (.387 average in a career year in 2000 vs .350 in 2001 and .372 in 2004 when he became the single season hit king). Also note how much his hit totals rose after the transition due to increased season length, and the fact that he showed little change in ability between 1994 and 2000 (meaning that his prime likely started earlier than that of most players). Can you honestly argue that you don't think Ichiro would have at least similar and very possibly better hit totals over those years?

Ichiro got BETTER when he came to the major leagues. He only had 1 200-hit season in the Japanese leagues and was down to 141/153 respectively in his final two seasons because of injuries I presume (average was still well over .300). His stats in Japan don't count toward his recorded total, but if he'd started playing in the majors at 20 (his first full season in Japan) instead of 27, and got 700 ABs a year instead of 500, he may very well be the hit king already.

And, if you've ever seen Ichiro take BP, you know he has plenty of power for the major leagues. He can hit a baseball as far as anyone. He may be the best pure hitter in the game right now if he were still in his prime (obviously Miggy is, but hypothetically speaking). For whatever reason, he was taught that he didn't need to use his power, and I guess his teachers were right.

"Chicks who dig home runs aren't the ones who appeal to me. I think there's sexiness in infield hits because they require technique. I'd rather impress the chicks with my technique than with my brute strength. Then, every now and then, just to show I can do that, too, I might flirt a little by hitting one out."
-Ichiro in the New York Times

The Japanese season is also about twenty games shorter than the MLB season, so if you extrapolate eight seasons in Japan, that's an additional season of baseball that he's missed out on, so you could reasonably add another 200 hits to his career total.

I also remember buzz a few years ago about Ichiro taking part in a home run derby at the All Star game. Would have been epic and gotten some huge ratings, and I'd love to have seen it.

It's hard to say better bo, his counting stats are higher but his average stats are lower, so it's a bit of a tossup, though your general point is right. In addition to AviF's quote, I'm pretty sure there's one somewhere where he said he could probably be a 20+ hr a year guy, but it would kill his batting average and other such offensive statistics, lowering his production to the team overall and making it not worth it.

Ghug, I would certainly argue better. 2WL hit the other half of my point.

It adds up. Pete Rose is afraid to admit it. Though Pete Rose is and I assume will forever be the hit king... hopefully old fuck Bud will see it someday.

ESPN insider Buster Olney had an excellent article this week about how Joe Morgan and Mike Schmidt pulled all the strings they could to get a meeting betweeen Bud Selig and Pete Rose in 2003, and it was a total disaster for Pete. The idiot went to Vegas the day after the meeting for some promotion. Pete will never get in the Hall. He is an addicted gambler period.

Sure, he's an addicted gambler. Big fuckin deal. How does that constitute a heavier punishment than, say, A-Rod lying about steroids and getting caught later on TWICE.

Bo Sox, I guess you don't know much about the history of baseball.

Are you going to finish that point or are you done? Or maybe you're just a diehard Phillies fan? Can't stand the Big Red Machine?

If there's anything I know about of everything ever discussed on this site, it's baseball.

What point bo sox. You want me to educate you about the long history of gambling in baseball? I'm sorry dude, but you have to do that on your own.

You're saying that gambling on games *without* impacting them (he was betting on teams to win, don't you know that, oh baseball guru?) is worse than juicing?

That's amazing. Can I have a sample of your brain tissue? We really need to study it; we've never seen this kind of specimen before.

Do you often make up statements and attribute them to other people like you just did Bo Sox?

MAJOR LEAGUE RULES
Rule 21
MISCONDUCT

(a) MISCONDUCT IN PLAYING BASEBALL. Any player or person onnected with a club who shall promise or agree to lose, or to attempt to lose, or to fail to give his best efforts towards the winning of any baseball game with which he is or may be in any way concerned; or who shall intentionally fail to give his best efforts towards the winning of any such baseball game, or who shall solicit or attempt to induce any player or person connected with a club to lose, or attempt to lose, or to fail to give his best efforts towards the winning of any baseball game with which such other player or person is or may be in any way connected; or who, being solicited by any person, shall fail to inform his Major League President and the Commissioner.

(b) GIFT FOR DEFEATING COMPETING CLUB. Any player or person connected with a club who shall offer or give any gift or reward to a player or person connected with another club for services rendered or supposed to be or to have been rendered in defeating or attempting to defeat a competing club, and any player or person connected with a club who shall solicit or accept from a player connected with another club any gifts or reward for any such services rendered, or supposed to have been rendered, or who having been offered any such gift or reward, shall fail to inform his League President or the Commissioner immediately of such offer, and of all facts and circumstances therewith, shall be declared ineligible for not less than three (3) years.

(c) GIFTS TO UMPIRES. Any player or person connected with a club, who shall give, or offer to give, any gift or reward to an umpire for services rendered, or supposed to be or to have been rendered, in defeating or attempting to defeat a competing club, or for the umpire's decision on anything connected with the playing of a baseball game; and any umpire who shall render, or promise or agree to render, any such decision otherwise than on its merits, or who shall solicit or accept such gifts or reward, or having been solicited to render any such decision otherwise than on its merits, shall fail to inform the League President or the Commissioner immediately of such offer or solicitation, and all facts and circumstances therewith, shall be declared permanently ineligible.

(d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year.

Okay, so suspend Pete Rose for a year. Maybe three if you're as crazy as Bud Selig. Not for life. You're helping me out, thanks, I appreciate it. Brain sample please?

"in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year. "

Does this mean betting on games the player or manager isn't even in? Because even the official documentor of his case (and primary witness against Pete Rose) says he never bet against his own team.

I read the rule as a year per game.

Correction, rule (d) says "with which the bettor has no duty to perform." A manager has a duty to perform so he doesn't get off with just one year per game.

But the other rules all say he has to be trying to *lose* or encouraging others to *lose*. He never did that because he bet for his teams to *win*.

Nothing you posted aside from part C, which was obviously not broken, suggests a lifetime ban anyway, Emac, really no matter how badly he broke those rules.

Bo, are you actually going to make an argument for why you think Ichiro got better? I don't think he got worse, but I'm pretty sure his stats did due to level of competition.

It's been made. If playing against major league talent, his average may drop 20 , but he's going to get 200+ more plate appearances every season. At this point in his career, you can reasonably add that over what, 18 seasons (check that), he could very easily put up at least 100 more hits over his career, if not 200 or even 300. He'd be closing in right now and we'd see every one of his at-bats live on MLB Network.

Consider again the coaching differences between the majors and the Japanese leagues. And still things fluctuate more. For example, if he'd played for the Yankees, he'd probably get more like 250 extra plate appearances instead of 200. If he'd played for a team in the NL, he'd get an AB every game he sits (I don't know how often he sits, but maybe just for fun give that another 50 plate appearances off the bench). This is all assuming he was signed at 20, his first full season in Japan.

I'm not saying he would have been better as a player, but his numbers would be better than now. He'd have the coaching and he'd have more opportunities. That is pretty clear.

Well, first of all, getting more hits in more plate appearances doesn't mean you're better, it just means you're getting more plate appearances. I'm not arguing that he wouldn't have as many hits if not more, merely that he didn't get *better*. It seems you're no longer arguing that either, but you should have been more clear, because you said "better".

As for your Yankees comment, that's a bit flawed, as the Mariners were actually quite talented offensively until a few years ago, and had a few decent hitters in the '90s as well, so it's not really fair to say the Yankees would have given him an extra 1000 PAs over 20 years. He also never sat, so that's a moot point as well.

His numbers would have been better. In today's world, that makes him "better."

I think that that's more of a matter of opinion than you think it is.