Yeah I am with Theconomist on that one. I agree that teachers deserve more but it's not just pay them more and make them hard to fire. It's bigger than that. Look at SKorea and Finland to see what I mean.

Excellent point Fasces.

Gunfighter, you consistently get the heart of the issue and make excellent points. Bravo!

Obama!!!!!! It's been a way better presidency than Bush's sorry ass!

Poor education in America is because teaching is not a competitive job.

The unions are definitely the biggest part of the education problem.

I have no problem with organized labor when their demands are reasonable. Unions got us a lot of good things, like 40 hour workweeks, weekends, and benefits. I start to get concerned when unions completely take advantage of their own power.

We have a huge education problem because it is almost impossible to fire a bad teacher. At the worst inner city schools, union teachers often don't show up for work but administrators can't fire them.

Private schools work because if the private school fucks up, the parents pull their kids out and whoever works at that school goes to the unemployment office.

@ Tettleton's Chew

Thank you.

@Geafram: Exactly, the union has to blame for that. A teacher can't be fired (thanks to the union) so it doesn't matter how good or bad they are at teaching. I am not advocating less money for teachers, I am saying they would do a hell of a lot better job if they could be fired if they were poor teachers.

@Gunfighter: I agree about how hard it is to fire bad teachers:
My economics teacher, for example, skips school whenever its sunny and the temperature is between 20-25 degrees (Celsius).
Its gotten so bad that there is an oncall substitute teacher just for him. (no joke)

He has now been teaching at my school for 26 years and will be teaching economics again next year.

The problem with private schools, at least here in Canada, is you can pay for marks. In standardized tests, the public school averages are always on par with the private school averages (at least for here in Toronto), however the GPA scores in public schools are around .7 lower then the private schools. (The stats are according to my guidance counselor, so don't shoot me if they are a little off) So why on standardized tests are we scoring around the same as you privates, but on GPAs we are scoring lower? The fact is, when looking at private schools you don't look at how much kids are learning, your looking at marks. If, for example, School A has GPA average (over entire school) is 3.6 while School B has one of 2.9, then which school would you rather have your kid attend? Private schools only care about how high the marks of their kids get with some exceptions. IB schools, for example, are very good, having gone to one myself.

public school systems work if done properly.
Singapore's public school system has been ranked the best school system in the world according to standardized tests. However it costs less then 1/3 of the amount per student then American public schools. So clearly they have a cheaper better system implemented. And one of the reasons is the lack of unions in Singapore.

Fasces, as you just said, the public school system has comparable results to the private schools here.
The teachers union is very strong here but the public schools aren't in disarray. Having a strong union helps compensate for the relatively low salaries. Sabbaticals, summer vacation, job security, etc. are all part of the incentive of being a teacher and you need to be able to attract smart, hard working people.

The biggest thing I blame the Teacher's Union for is mismanaging the Maple Leafs.

Gunfighter, Monopoly is the problem with the schools. The unions have a monopoly on public schools. Get rid of the monopoly with school vouchers and keep the unions. The unions will reform themselves once the monopoly vanishes. A unionized monopoly is worthless.

@Yonni: i disagree, the only problem with the teachers union is their prevention of having shit teachers fired:

For example my calculus teacher thinks the formula for the volume of a cone and a cylinder are the same. We had a huge argument in class about this.

(Every post I will make about teachers from now on will include an example of a teacher who is shit and hasn't been fired)

Also the mismanagement of the Leafs is not the unions fault. Its the fans fault,. The problem is the ACC is the only stadium in sports history that sells out every game even if the team is on a 9 game loosing streak.

Because they real in twice the profit of any other team in the league, they have no incentive to do better cause it doesn't matter.
Because they earn $270 million a year without trying there is no incentive to work hard for $350+ million. Wont make that much of a difference.

If the fans go on strike (or better yet, form a union, lol) as in not see 1 or 2 games after a loosing streak the leafs will get better.

If you look at almost every player we have aquired in the last 3 years:
Komisarek, Phaneuf, Kessel, Versteeg, Jiggy, Gustavsson, Raycroft, and many more were all much better before playing on the leafs then on the leafs. And those we have recently traded (with the exception of Kaberle) all became better as soon as they left.

The reason for this is because TML promotes laziness. Our fans are mature, and cheer on the team regardless of whether were loosing or not and will pay $200 to say a hockey game. Because of that, no matter how well the leafs play, they will still sell out, so unlike Tampa Bay and Nashville, which were on the brink of bankruptcy last year but now have steady profits thanks to a good season it doesn't matter whether you win or loose.

@tettleton's Chew: when has a union not been monopolized? I don't hate unions, however I hate it when unions try to promote equal wages and no firing. It prevents any progress.

For example, during Advanced Functions this year, when I asked my teacher a question, his response was "google it:". This might have been funny if it happened once. It happened between 5-10 times from my questions and even more from other people.
The teacher can't except google to do his job (yet) its not what he is paid to do.

He (like the other 2 teachers I mentioned above) are protected by unions so will not be fired.

@ Fasces349

"I don't hate unions, however I hate it when unions try to promote equal wages and no firing. It prevents any progress."

I could not agree more. Fasces + 1

Public schools work very well in certain parts of the world, especially when the teachers are not unionized. In the United States, public schools have been such a huge failure that we need to do more than pour more money into the broken system. We could dismantle the unions, throw more money at it, or whatever, but I think the best solution (at least in America's case) is a privatization of the whole system.

When something is broken this badly, you throw it out and start over. The education problem is no different. American education is broken. We need to throw out the current system and start over.

@ Tettleton's Chew

I am still skeptical of unions. What is stopping them from regaining their lost power once the system has been privatized? UAW is a private union, but they still have a lot of muscle.