If you agree with Ayn Rand (Which you don't necessarily, but you should) you shouldn't give a flying piece of bat dung what obi thinks of her.

Just curious, as he keeps posting all these philosophy threads.

I was thinking about reading 'Atlas Shrugged' this Summer. I'm assuming you've read it, and was wondering if it's a good read? :)

Oh, and any discussion about Ayn Rand is incomplete without the mention of Bioshock. :D

As flattered as I am that my WebDip name now has its own forum...

I'm sorry to say I've never actually READ Ayn Rand. :p (Plenty more philosophers from Aristotle to Sartre to read and read more in detail before I read Rand.)

But I WILL say that as far as egoism goes in general...

It depends, really, as much as I'm for indiividuals rising above the collected group al la the Ubermensch (two of my favorite examples of sorts of pop culture Ubermensch are Batman and Dr. Gregory House from "House MD," the former is a vigilante and breaks plenty of laws himself but it proves to be a positive, he's ABOVE the decadent societal laws of Gotham City, and Hous is... House, best doctor around, so yep, he'll break the rules, but his ends generally justify the means... ends-means justification is messy and a lot easier to decide with fictional characters than real people, but it does merit some consideration I think...)

However, I think people SHOULD, in general, be more concerned with the questions that surround mankind and improving our race (or at least themselves and their friends, so improving our race on a community level) than, say...

Taking a Philosophy of Ethics class jsut to become a nurse to get a job to get money to get food to feed the self to wrok to get money to get a car to get to work to work to get money to buy a house to live in to shelt ones self to prepare for work to work to get married to have kids to qork to acquire more goods for oneself and the kids to die.

I HATE that nearly all my Ethics class, while decent people and some even rather bright, nearly none of them care about the class past just nurse or police officer training!

That is just focusing on the self, and NOT in a way, like Batman or House, that elevates the self and/or society to a new plateau.

Its just a Consumerism Cycle.

Captitalism is fine, and good... but people SHOULD set aside time to just THINK, and ACT, and actively inquire about themselves and try to improve themselves and, if they can, society by extension.

Training for nursing for money for house for food for job for marriage for kids for death does NOT do that.

So one form of egoism in my view is good, in moderation; the other viersion, the Consumerism Cycle, is abhorant.

Ayn Rand can fuck off and die.

Ahem. Sorry for that somewhat trollish outburst.

I will say one thing, though. For everyone who says "oooh, you can't criticise Ayn Rand until you're read her works", I would say there is a book YOU should read. It's called "The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists", by Robert Tressell and although its 100 years old, the case it makes for socialism is still very powerful, and valid, today.

Jamiet99uk can fuck off and die

Oops. Sorry for that somewhat trollish outburst.

Obiwan - I'm note sure why you don't believe one can improve himself while participating in capitalism? There is a hell of a lot of good for society (inventions, medical and otherwise) that were divsed specifically to aid society AND because they made someone rich. Brilliant invention without the hope of reward is rare indeed - capitalism HELPS society thrive.

As far as improving oneself - well, I think my home, my friends, my wife, my children ARE all part of improving me. First - they perpetuate the species, and without perpetuation of species there would hardly by either improvement or a need to improve...But I honestly don't understand how you can basically say my life is worthless, that I do not improve myself or my world, because my major focus happens to be working to care for my family. I train my children to think, to be better people than my neighbor's kids. I work to improve myself, and through discussion and activity my wife. What would you have me do instead? Stick my hand out to the government to care for me while I sit aside for a time to think and act?

re: the Consumerism cycle...without people consuming things there would be no advancement, no innovation, and you would be sitting in a cave/under a tree/anywhere other than in front of your computer enlightening us, because thee would be no computers.

Methinks you are too hard on the value of work, the economy, capitalism, etc.

I have a copy of "capitalism: the unknown ideal" on the back of my toilet in case I ever run out of toilet paper. I think it's already missing a few pages.

Capatialism does not foster civilized behavior.

Socialism does not foster an educated population.

REMEMBER, BE HERE NOW

rlumley +1
DingleberryJones +1

That pretty much sums it up.

@obiwanobiwan:
to sum it up, you are not able to give a thorough analysis because you have not thoroughly investigated it.
Thanks

Wait, WHAT???

I never said one can't improve themselves through capitalism, I merely said that if your life is gearned JUST to get a job or JUST to get money for that new car, that's not "real" improvement.

Anyone care to challenge THAT assessment, or do you believe that the highest thing in life is earning anough money for a weekend in Vegas?

Capitalism vs. Socialism aside...

One of the most interesting thing about Ayn Rand is that she writes her philosophy as novels. Given that the concept of 'the novel' is so heavily intertwined with philosophy, I have this to say about Ayn Rand:

SHE IS SOOOO BORING! She write the most poorly written novels EVER! If you want a good novelist/philosopher with similar views, read Goerge Orwell's essays but for God's sake do not waste your life with those books.

@ Kaiser: Why do you say they are poorly written? I find them very compelling. I think the difference lies in that I can relate to the characters, whereas I would assume you can not.

I've read Atlas Shrugged twice, by the way. Loved it both times... I've also read The Fountainhead, but it was not that great, mainly because it dealt a lot more with her chauvinistic personal philosophy.

There is a difference between enjoying a novel, and the novel being well written. When the character stands in front of a large crowd and almost flat out declared that he is going to speak for however many pages, that is poorly written.

That seriously leads me to question if you have read anything worthwhile. Ever.

I think that many people, including myself, would disagree with you KaiserWilly. Ayn Rand is not a terrible writer, and Atlas Shrugged is surely not poorly written. Just because it is boring does not mean that it is poorly written.

I see that I have stumbled upon a rare niche of Rand 'afficionados'. I see that none of you will forseeably change you opinion of Rand (and neither will I) so I humbly bow out of this conversation.

+1 KaiserWilly. More internet debates should be like that.