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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Deltoria (227 D)
02 May 10 UTC
Live Game-112
gameID=28082
6 mins to join.
9 replies
Open
TheJon123 (298 D)
01 May 10 UTC
Live game
4 more starts in 5 mins ! gameID=28078
4 replies
Open
tomekperet (1041 D)
01 May 10 UTC
New 5 min Live game
Starting in 10 min. GO habs GO.
4 replies
Open
swainey2010 (0 DX)
01 May 10 UTC
mangina gunboat!!!!
join sweet mangina of hodge. starts 12.35
0 replies
Open
Boodaboy (104 D)
01 May 10 UTC
Live World Gunboat in 60 min
gameID=28075

Join fast!
2 replies
Open
justinnhoo (2343 D)
01 May 10 UTC
gameID=28074
gameID=28074 anon live game
1 reply
Open
Madcat991 (0 DX)
01 May 10 UTC
Live Classic
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=28073
0 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
29 Apr 10 UTC
The Top 5 YOU Have Wanted To Serve With
There have been so many great generals, commanders, colonels, captains, admirals... some cruel, some kind (to their men, anyway) and some downright insane.

Still, imagine you have to go off to war tomorrow, any time period, but you HAVE to go off to fight a war- what's your short list, your Top 5 Commanders YOU'D want to have?
45 replies
Open
terry32smith (0 DX)
01 May 10 UTC
European War - Diplomacy - Live - 5 min turns @ 3:15pm!
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=28069
1 reply
Open
terry32smith (0 DX)
01 May 10 UTC
European War - Diplomacy - Live - 5 min turns @ 2:55pm!
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=28061
0 replies
Open
Deltoria (227 D)
01 May 10 UTC
World Map Live Game
10 minute phase
1 hour pre-game
bet 5
gameID=28049
28 replies
Open
Graeme (0 DX)
01 May 10 UTC
Attention world game people: New Classic Game on in 15
2 replies
Open
TAWZ (0 DX)
01 May 10 UTC
WAR IS HELL
Live Game
Classic
anoym
gameID=28054
0 replies
Open
Graeme (0 DX)
01 May 10 UTC
Ancient Mediterranean Live Game
gameID=28050
Any interest? It's just a bit easier than getting 17 people for a world live :D
8 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
01 May 10 UTC
Logic and Beliefs, Philosophy, Thought... They Still HAVE THAT In The Media???
Who are some of your heroes, and what do they act like, think, believe? Are they like you in those respects? Your childhood heroes in literature and film... did you modle yourself after them, are you sort of like them today? Share your favorite heroes, villains, and THEIR beliefs, it's Friday, so let's have a fun. I kick it off with MY biggest hero in TV today, I agree with him, some even nickname me after him... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb3GZ5DfaTY&feature=related
4 replies
Open
akilies (861 D)
01 May 10 UTC
Live Game anyone?
I'm thinking low pot like 10 D, and ppsc or wta whatever.
0 replies
Open
terry32smith (0 DX)
01 May 10 UTC
Live Fortune game - Europe - 5 min -starts @ 11:35am PST
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=28046
0 replies
Open
Nanuq (156 D)
01 May 10 UTC
World of Wasted Words... :P
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=27822
World Diplomacy Map needs 12 more players.
0 replies
Open
Frank (100 D)
01 May 10 UTC
live wta gunboat in 20 min
20 point buy in, good times, guaranSheed http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=28041
1 reply
Open
Island (131 D)
01 May 10 UTC
GunBoat Old
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=28040

5/min Phases
20/min Sign up
0 replies
Open
Jimbozig (0 DX)
01 May 10 UTC
another try for live gunboat
please join. its fun. gameID=28036
5 replies
Open
ReaverNecris (130 D)
27 Apr 10 UTC
Overrated, Underrated and Unknown
Just want to know what people think are Over and Underrated and things that are amazing but largely Unknown.
Also just want to see how long it takes for everyone here to get into a massive debate about something unrelated.
191 replies
Open
DingleberryJones (4469 D(B))
22 Apr 10 UTC
My last gunboat had a player banned
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=23881
In this ANONYMOUS Gunboat game, France went into CD in 1903. A new player took over in 1904 and was banned for an unknown reason.
99 replies
Open
jman777 (407 D)
27 Apr 10 UTC
Naturalism, Nihilism, and Existentialism.
See Inside
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orathaic (1009 D(B))
30 Apr 10 UTC
@Chrispminis you explained a much better example of the whole cockpit-pilot issue, which is very cool.

I have a physics background which includes some description of chaos and complexity (weather predictiosn is all down to understanding physics and using computers to crunch the numbers) But also emergent phenomina is something which is really like and understand a bit from studying computer game AI and some computer science...

I think you'll enjoy the rebecca saxe talk too.
nola2172 (316 D)
01 May 10 UTC
orathaic and Chrispminis - I got a chance to read through both of your posts, so I will comment on two things.

First, on the whole broken joystick thing - what I said is entirely consistent with what you wrote about that Chrispminis. When things get disconnected, odd things happen. Kind of like if you tried to steer a plane with a "combined" joystick that control the rudder, ailerons, and elevators with one control and some of the wires are disconnected; some pretty odd behavior results. I would also add that our overly deterministic view of the brain (that you described) has led to a massive increase in the percentage of our population that is now diagnosed with some sort of neurological disorder (depression and ADHD come to mind) that seems to require drugs. While there are obviously some people who have real problems, I think it is quite likely (and the scientific community is starting to think this as well from what I seem to recall reading lately, though not phrased as I put it) that, instead of acting as though people have a real will to do things, we assume everything is purely biological and thus must be "fixed" with drugs rather than by making different choices. The worst is probably with children on psychological drugs (since they used to survive without them well enough), but that is enough on that topic.

With regards to the proximate free will topic, if you want to describe our will as the sum total of the actions of the subatomic particles that make up our being, I guess you can do so. I will still argue that this is fundamentally no different (though more complex) than say a tree has a will or my computer has a will. Using your definition of will (which appears to me to just be the sum total of the interaction of our subatomic particles which produces some sort of output in response to stimuli), how does not every living thing, or even everything for that matter, not have a will? Is it just the complexity of the interactions within humans? Is there some sort of threshold of complexity at which somethings goes from not having a will to having one? If so, what exactly is it? That does not make any sense at all.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
01 May 10 UTC
'instead of acting as though people have a real will to do things, we assume everything is purely biological and thus must be "fixed" with drugs rather than by making different choices.' - how to teach people to make better choices is a difficult question, and i do think that the brain can change it's own chemistry without neccesarily needing drugs - however i also think drugs can be helpful for getting the brain into a state where the changes are easier to make - that doesn't mean i don't think drugs aren't over-proscribed by some doctors/psychiatrists - but then if they DO work clearly these people are going to advise that people use them - any other methods of retraining the brain (and i'm thinking about forming life-habits which leave you feeling good about yourself and not depressed) are more difficult in my humble expierence.

Do animals have will? i mean compared to trees, i know certain pets who can follow commands, who will go fetch a ball when you throw it. Aretehy just following their instincts or are thethinking about playing with their owners?

"That does not make any sense at all." - we have brains. I mean really Trees do not have brains, they respond in a different way, we wouldn't say they have a will when talking about how they react to things (though the chemical reactions they exhibit do serve mostly to protect them when that is possible) In the same sense our brains on a basic level function to keep our hearts beating - automatic functions which we don't control - we have many different functions, and if you want to call all of them will then go right ahead.

The point i was tying to make about complexity is that you can't just look at the rudimentrary parts - the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

The whole of a human brain (when properly developed) has an emergent behaviour - which you can't describe just in terms of the molecules - please find out what emergent means and read some examples of it - it is really cool anyway - A dog's brain and will creates a different emergent property which we might call by a different name if it didn't tick all the box which we have decided human 'will' amounts to - it would still be categorised as a type of consciouness.

@Broken joystick - If you looked at the video you will see it is a medical exmpale of a person who has two sides of their brain (the cockpit in the scheme you propose) one side can draw, the other can talk, both can see things (because we have two eyes - one wired to each side of the brain) in the experiment it was clear that the side which could talk knew different things to the side which could write. (they were dissconnected surgically to prevent epileptic fits)

It is like the cockpit is split in two, and each side can get input from the outside world, but can only do a limited number of things - however your pilot seems to be split in two, as if one is driving each cockpit - is there two souls at work? Or is it one soul somehow inhabiting both sides of the brain but not able to communicate information between either sides (because of the surgery) except when he draws something with one half and then the other half looks at it and can talk about it...

That doesn't make much sense unless the pilot is split in two aswell. (again caused by a fairly simple surgical procedure)

"Is there some sort of threshold of complexity at which somethings goes from not having a will to having one?"

We have only really studied complexity since some time in the 60s (se: http://complexity.orconhosting.net.nz/) We don't current measure some threshold of complexity - but if i describe 'will' as an emergent phenomina then it is just that, a property of certain system - it only occurs when the system exhibits it - complex systems are really hard to breakdown into their composite parts and then say logically - 'oh this bit makes that happen, which leads to thing B, which means that the bit over the looks like it had free will'

So we can't go - anything with over 20 billion billion atoms, and 30 million connections between each atom has free will - we have instead to go 'this whole thing exhibits this behaviour' - now you can do really good science by comparing similar systems and there is cool stuf relating to complex foams and the stock market and how humans behave en-mass, along with neural networks - but this is still a very new area for science to be going into and explaining...
orathaic (1009 D(B))
01 May 10 UTC
"Science generally uses a system called reductionism to investigate our world. This means breaking down anything being examined into the parts that make it up. Reductionism proposes that if we understand the parts, we will understand how the whole system works. If you take a mechanical clock to pieces, you can see what each part does you can find out how it works. Some things, however, can't be investigated in this way. There is much to be learned by dissecting a rat, for example, but in dissecting it, we kill it and cannot learn what gives it life.

Sometimes we need to stand back and look at the whole system to understand how things work, rather than break it into pieces."
nola2172 (316 D)
01 May 10 UTC
orathaic - I looked over emergent behavior a bit. All it says is that simple parts work together to make something more complex that has an order to it. Not much more. This in no way addresses my earlier argument. Our inability to understand how something works does not mean that it is not understandable, just that we don't undertand it. You mention the stock market as an emergent system, and I don't think anybody would say it has a will even though we can't predict how it works.

Also, to say that something has a will because it exhibits having a will is to not really say anything. That essentially defines something as having a "will" if we can't figure out how it works. Since the presence of a will in something either is or is not (regardless of our understanding), it can't be dependent on whether or not we understand how it works.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
01 May 10 UTC
"That essentially defines something as having a "will" if we can't figure out how it works." no, i didn't say the stock market has a will because we can't figure out how it works.

And it is not that we can't figure out how it works an emergent system has properties which you wouldn't think or understand FROM the basic underlying rules - if you look at a flock of birds, their behaviour appears to be directed - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH-groCeKbE - but it can be shown that it doesn't need a master bird in charge directing all the others, each one is just keeping it's own distance and flying close to the same direction as the others... - in this case http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8eZJnbDHIg&feature=related - the flock of birds reacts toa predator's attack. again the only communication each bird needs is local, no master control, each sees it's neighbours movement and the approaching predators (if it is close enough) and the whole flock moves as if it is one.

"to say that something has a will because it exhibits having a will is to not really say anything." - that's right, but if we think of the birds you could say they have a communal will, but it is an emergent phenomenon built out of individual interactions - that is waht we are saying will is in humans - an emergent phenomenon built out of the individual interaction of neurons.

We don't say the birds have a 'will' we say they exhibit flocking behaviour - which is just a description of the behaviour - you can't describe it in terms of the individual interactions - if you just describe the interactions then you need to go and simulate a group of them to see what their macroscopic behaviour is ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu8Cz0mDiy8 )

So i'm not saying we don't understand this emergent behaviour, just that we can't describe it in terms of the behaviour of the simple parts which make it up - we can only describe it in terms of what it does on the macro scale - so something which exhibits the properties of will has will - that's just our definition of will.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
01 May 10 UTC
"Tt doesn't need a master bird in charge directing all the others" - just as there doesn't need to be a master 'will' in charge of our brains - it is just all the parts working together.


67 replies
Jimbozig (0 DX)
01 May 10 UTC
New Live Gunboats
in 30: gameID=28021
in an hour: gameID=28022
4 replies
Open
Kin Marr (200 D)
01 May 10 UTC
Live Game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=28024

Live game starts in about 30 minutes. Please join
2 replies
Open
baumhaeuer (245 D)
28 Apr 10 UTC
Obiwanobiwan:
what do you think of Ayn Rand's egoism?
24 replies
Open
cujo8400 (300 D)
28 Apr 10 UTC
Sign up as a member of the G-17
Come and play a game of World Diplomacy for 25 D !! G-17 (Conference I) has 16 member slots left. gameID=27786
18 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
29 Apr 10 UTC
I'm gonna ask you a bunch of questions, and I want to have them answered immediately!
Who is your daddy, and what does he do?
30 replies
Open
Madcat991 (0 DX)
30 Apr 10 UTC
The BIG DOG Syndrome
I am still a begginer here , But I think Top players have a little problem , When they join one game , Usually and easily people can see their points they have erned , But I think Its unfair to them as people will be more aware , specially if they are playing agains people who dont have that much points who will feel treat.

PD : English is not my mother tongue so dont mess with the ortography :P
13 replies
Open
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