https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(1869)

Without capitalism, we'd have no good videogames tho

The Black Friday idea is great. Whoever came up with the idea of a sale before Christmas instead of after was a genius. Thanksgiving I can take or leave.

I hate that we have already had a month of nutty Christmas songs.
#BanChristmasMusicInStoresBeforeThanksgiving

Capitalism is a net positive, corporatism and monopolistic big-business cronyism are net negatives.

Well, down here in third world we don't have Thanksgiving, but we have Black Friday (we even have Black Week in many online stores).

I wish I can give more +1s for the Dagger guy.

Why does it have to be "black" Friday? That's racist, bro.

Eden hates black people confirmed

Black ink instead of red ink, me bucco

Corporatism and monopolistic big-business cronyism are the ultimate end goals of capitalism.

"yeah fuck capitalism tho"

As far as this particular subject goes, I agree.
I don't know if I'm more frustrated with the irreverent scum that commodified my traditions or the masses who are supposed to care about those traditions but have cast them aside in favor of some materialistic nonsense, but I suppose it doesn't matter, it's probably inevitable in a market economy.

An intriguing assertion, Jeff Kuta, but I happen to believe that the consolidation of goods, capital, assets and institutions under the monolithic and unassailable umbrellas of international corporations actually runs counter to the philosophy of capitalism. The bureaucratic and protectionist policies the lobbyists for such bodies pursue strangle the competition out of the marketplace and put unbearable strain on small business owners, entrepreneurs and the self employed. (Corporatism is actually remarkably similar to Communism in this respect, but I digress.)

Capitalism, at its core, is the idea that innovators ought to be free to innovate and that any business that fails to do so will eventually be left behind by the march of progress and the inherent imagination of the human spirit. It's a meritocratic ideal.

Big business cronyism jams up the works with red tape and paperwork and stifles competition in order to protect the interests of the company shareholder at the expense of society as a whole. This is most evident in institutions like the European Union, where corporate lobbying is a many-billion euro industry and influences three quarters or more of its legislation.

I would say that while "capitalism" (in the very general form of a currency-exchange economy) may have played a role in the commodification of culture, the lion's share of the blame can be laid at the feet of postmodern internationalism.

I agree that postmodernism and the increasing identification among Westerners, especially white Westerners, as "citizens of the world" instead of citizens of their nation-state, is the proximate cause of the commodification of the holidays. But what do you think caused those phenomena?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xJAxRVeKnTE

A core conceit of postmodernism is the rejection of concepts like absolute truth and objective reality. It asserts that everything is subject to interpretation, that one view is just as valid as another, and that no thing is quantifiably better than any other thing. In such a mindset it follows that any and all cultures may as well be each other's equals: entirely replaceable and interchangable, with no intrinsic worth in and of themselves, only for what they provide to the consumer. In short, it's a cynical and irreverent philosophy that I believe stems from the abject misery following the great depressions and world wars of the early/mid 20th century, packed full of doubt and misery and characterised by a supreme lack of self-confidence.

A kind of toxic moral-relativism has been using this prevailing cultural philosophy to seep into modern society (In the Western World in particular), helped along by the hobbyist social engineering of rootless, metropolitan multi-billionaires.

I'm curious how you reconcile your rosy view of capitalism with your comparatively bleak view of post-modernism. Considering you've described it as essentially creating a market of cultures where worth is based on what they provide to the consumer.

Isn't that the sort of market driven solution you'd want to see?
(Caveat, a lot of postmodern philosophy is to my remembrance quite skeptical of capitalism, so I can understand on principle your not liking postmodernism. Just not postmodernism as you've just described it.

For context, so you all know my bias asking this question: I'm skeptical of capitalism but I loathe post-modernism)

Fundamentally I don't believe that cultural issues can be solved with the same tools that you would use to resolve economic problems.

(And while I may have presented a fairly positive argument as to the merits of free market capitalism, I do so mostly in opposition to authoritarian state economies or lawless anarchy rather than out of any particular love of the ruthless meritocracy. It is the worst system we have - except for everything else we have tried.)

This probably isn't the place for this discussion. But if cultural issues are poorly served by being resolved by market forces. Would that suggest these sorts of issues are also poorly served by being included as part of our democratic process? As theoretically democracy is about a free market of ideas where you vote for the party whose ideas best appeal to you.

Sure, but ensuring the benevolence of any other kind of government is difficult. Dictatorships all too often become oppressive as their rulers become paranoid and obsessive about retaining their absolute power - and i'm not sure I can see a world in which human nature would allow even a technocratic system to exist isolated from these political forces.

The same argument can be made about democracy, mind you. Mob rule can look quite ugly in societies where the punishment for being an apostate from the state religion is death.

Interesting conversation so far, thanks C&D.

Bringing my tangent back to the original topic. If commodification of cultural elements (possibly due to a postmodern world view) is responsible for the commercialization of certain holidays.

Is changing minds, and perhaps romanticizing holidays the only reasonable, non-authoritarian solution?

"A kind of toxic moral-relativism has been using this prevailing cultural philosophy to seep into modern society (In the Western World in particular), helped along by the hobbyist social engineering of rootless, metropolitan multi-billionaires."

I agree in part with your assessment, but the fact that Western economies have been massively outsourcing their production to the Third World can't be overlooked as a cause either. You have much less of a reason to be tied to your nation-state when your personal means of accruing wealth are not, whether you're the baron that owns the company or just a worker for the company.
A man's economic ties to his nation-state is an important aspect of his willingness to preserve his traditions. When his economic ties become globalized, and economic interdependence with other nation-states and cultures sets in, all of the cultures involved in that economic interdependence necessarily begin to adopt each other's customs and ways of doing things, which weakens his ties to his own way of doing things.

We can debate whether or not that process is a good thing, but I think it is clear that it's happening. The only component of the holidays that most people seem to celebrate still is the spending. Of course that would be the last thing to go...

That's a difficult question.

Trying to fight back against contemporary nihilistic consumerism is not a problem that I would say has any simple or obvious solutions.

Changing minds is liable to be a difficult journey, and my cynicism suggests dissuading people from taking advantage of holiday sales might as well be sisyphean.

Broadly, though, yes.

And President Eden, i'd say that's a sound understanding. It seems the more international any business becomes, the more rootless they necessarily become.

"Is changing minds, and perhaps romanticizing holidays the only reasonable, non-authoritarian solution?"

I think simply having conversations about the history and meaning of the holidays would go a long way. And by "having conversations" here I mean having reasonable, constructive and celebratory ones, not the annual "muh injun genocide feel guilty whitey" garbage that some corners of the Internet love to peddle.
I find that most people are simply apathetic to the holidays. There's no feeling of wonder or sanctity or connection to a broader whole.
Consider all that's going on. It's the start of winter. The rhetorical "end of the day" for one year. It's the time of year that's as close as prosperous Westerners will ever get to feeling the harsh coldness that their ancestors had to fight and conquer in order to stay alive. You walk into a building and literally feel the warmth of the heater, as you leave the austere cold behind you and enter into the company of family and friends. That simple feeling is an opportunity to connect yourself to human history. There's a reason the pagans celebrated with winter festivals, the Romans had their Saturnalia, and of course, the medieval Christians whose societies were the ancestors to our own had Christmas, which we still celebrate. You are participating in a tradition which has explicit times of celebration going back thousands of years, which in turn is ultimately adapted from the constant battle of survival against the cold and harsh winter which mankind has waged since he first came out of the caves.
How cool is that?
It doubly serves as a time for reflection upon the past year, and a time to resolve to make the next year better. You could theoretically do that part at any time, but the turning of the calendar is a powerful temporal imprint, and even the subtle scenery outside, as the green plants go away until next year, serves as another marker to let you know that now's a great time to make plans for succeeding next year.

There's so much potential there for breaking out of the everyday materialistic grind and sharing a few real moments with the people that came before you, the people still here with you, and setting a new path for yourself. People just don't see it because of the blitz of commercials and the expectations of gift-giving and receiving.

I guess I did just romanticize the whole thing, didn't I? But I really do believe all of that. And I think if we talk to people about the holidays like that, maybe they'll start to see it that way too.

Fingers crossed. Happy holidays.

Bump, to lift this above ten pestilential threads trying to commercialise the Forum during holidays.

Nothing wrong with romanticizing holidays.
I've taken to trying to celebrate more traditional holidays like yule in addition to the more commonly celebrated ones. Since they haven't been so thoroughly commercialized its pretty easy to focus on neat old traditions.

Last year we did a candlelight celebration with music, mulled wine in front of our fireplace. We also made a yule log cake.

I usually also try and go to a Robbie Burns Celebration most years. Its a bit commercial in that its a big fundraiser for a lot of the Scottish community associations (so there is usually a silent auction or 50-50 ticket sale), but at the same time its usually a big community supper with music and dancing. Plus the toast to the haggis is always a hoot.