The point is to crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their home supply centers.

1) It wasn't really useful because it never really mattered. The gameIDs were in succession so it was trivial to check the other games by going up or down in URL, and the points never mattered because of so many replacements.

2) I think the scoring is fine. Phase length is fine. Number of games is fine (I'd want more, not less, if it were to be changed). I'd like to hear thoughts on it being anon.

3) The biggest problem was dropouts. NMRs weren't a problem and aren't a problem (it's part of Diplomacy, and definitely part of 25 H/phase browser diplomacy is that you have to get your moves in on time. This isn't like a live-game where someone misses all of 1901). The drop-outs being allowed to stay in games they no longer had a stake in was a huge problem. I don't like how they didn't start every 21 days. If people can't handle overlapping or multiple games they shouldn't be in the Leagues.

I know I'm still a younin' when it comes to some things, but there is a time aspect. Especially with on-time starts, it's hard to see the games getting even faster (except 12 H phases!! (which I think would be fun but certainly not happening)) but there is an issue of goals.

I mean, the idea is to be like a pyramid / ladder, and the goal is to reach/stay at the top. Unless I'm mistaken? But imagine someone who starts in B-league. They get to A* IF they get top 3 two seasons in a row (one IRL year). I suppose if the Leagues are kept going and constant and well-advertised it'll be worth people's time to climb but it's simply not obvious right now. again, maybe this is simply because I joined when the Leagues had their hiatus so it doesn't have the Everest-like quality for me.

There's obviously no easy answer to drop-outs/replacements. Especially if it's not something like ODC round 1 but where you're trying to replace someone in a specific tier. I'm hoping as the unreliables are gated out of future rounds and the prestige of the tournament increases it'll be much less of a problem.

I think the leagues as a premise is a tough one. It has some interesting elements, how do you adapt to the meta element? How do you keep your reputation clean enough to last four games? But it also has some logistical challenges to it, primarily keeping people interested. It's even more so difficult as it's quite plausible for a user by the third game to be essentially out of contention for a specific player to reasonable be able to win the league making the next two games an exercise in monotonous obligation.

I ended up being one of their guys that ultimately dropped out. I had full intentions to ride it out despite some dissatisfaction with the premise, but by round three my league already lost half of its original participants so the meaning seemed pretty lost.

Personally, as a GR motivated player the premise already had some conflicts since to do we'll you have to really pace yourself for the first few games. A solo also guarantees you to be first eliminated next round. Dragging your heels strategically is a tough pill if you're the type who cares about ranking. There's also a familiarity factor that kind sucks, after four games I end up with 6 other players that know me way more intimately then I generally would be comfortable with. It's my own fault for not making sure I understood the structure before entering, if thought there to be shifting of players in league between rounds and end of the year the cream would be at the top which sounded like a fun challenge.

I have no serious complains about Goldie as a TD. I got blindsided a bit about getting added to games before I was ready to start, but was understanding. I did have a complaint about how one of the members ended up in the premium league who got grandfathered in from a league two years prior that had a pretty jagged quality line in its final seeding. That player really had no reason being in a premium league and watered down the quality of the game considerably before eventually bailing.

The only other complaint about format would be country selection. Right now it's set that you only would have the same country at most twice in the four games but I think that can be improved upon. There were a few games where the same players had the same county in back to back games which really upped the meta aspect and made the game feel extremely repeative and mononous. With only 4 games i'd think it reasonable to not play the same country twice in the same season.

Both theoretically and empirically it's been shown time and time again that a solo effectively wins the League for you so the only reason to be concerned about further League losses is out-of-League reasons like GR. Just want to clarify that. Unless someone disagrees.

Solo in the later rounds i'd agree. Is that the case for those who solo in earlier rounds as well? Haven't really gotten that familiar with the stats of it all.

Theoretically, quite likely. Say the other 6 get a draw without you each time. Won't be close to enough. Someone would pretty much need to do well in all 3 games yet to come to get ahead in points, and you'd need to get killed in all of them which isn't a given.

Especially if runner-ups promote too, the smart player guns for second or third and leaves you in first.

Also if all the games start as scheduled, it may be too late to eliminate you from the draw in other games.

Indeed, actively trying not to solo is one of those things you hear a lot, but a non-solo isn't going to improve your chances compared to a solo..

Good feedback so far. Please keep it coming.

On the note about the games not starting every 21 days - it was my intention to do that, but various people dragged their feet at each one, and with the large amount of people playing in multiple leagues, I was reluctant to push them over the edge

It's been a different experience. Preferring anonymous, knowing who each player was made things tricky. Players reputations carry through from one game to the next. I share the same thoughts as VI...the familiarity factor can be a blessing or a curse, depending on how close of a neighbour they were.

You've done a standup job as TD, as far as I'm concerned.

I agree that goldfinger has done a stand up job as TD. I backed out of playing in the leagues. I find the format, not appealing. Non-anon in this format is horrendous. I think meta applicable situations take away from nature of the game.

Just my thoughts though

I enjoy the meta aspect; I think that it makes the leagues a very unique experience. I can see how it can be frustrating for some (and indeed, I suffered due to it in my third game), but that's what I signed up for and I fully expected it to be like that.

I second the call that, with only 4 games, we should get 4 different countries each time, though. Rolling Russia twice in a row was quite frustrating, and someone in my league got France twice in a row in the same games. I think this would certainly help the latter games, particularly Game 4, and keep them feeling unique rather than just continuations of the previous game.

I'd agree with Hellenic Riot - the meta aspect is what makes the Leagues different, and unique

I recall Game 3 getting ready and i ended up drawing Germany for the second time in a two with Russia being also the same player as Game 2 which was still ongoing and where we were both pretty bitter enemies. In the France/England position were two players that had allied so far in every prior game including the one that was still ongoing. While i'm happy that it kept the pace going, I'm not entirely sure overlapping games really lends itself well to this type of a format I think you need a little bit of a chance to step away for a second and come back fresh or the meta aspect starts to really dictate too much your relationships with the other players.

Or just fuck it, start all four games at the same time and see what happens.

Gold, the leagues have been an exciting challenge and a lot of fun. Thank you for all your time and effort.

1) Yes. I like the tourney page, with scores and rules posted.
2) The structure provides a unique and exciting challenge.
3) I think the biggest constructive criticism I can offer to help with TD'ing future leagues is that rules, for this league or for any competition in life, need to be outlined in advance and consistently followed (more detail/ideas below).

I believe that NMR's should either be allowed to happen OR should be completely eliminated via Wait-For-Order (WFO) mode, backed up by consequences for orders received after deadlines. Frantically emailing mods to prevent an NMR, and then those last minute pauses either coming through on time or not, is basically a "cheap", inconsistent and unreliable version of WFO. If a frantic pause is allowed to stop an NMR, then just leave it on WFO all the time instead since this is 100% reliable. As players, we can either plan and play through some NMR's or plan for no NMR's. It can be a massive blow to diplomatic efforts and also to revealed tactics and strategies, when we as players expect a pause or WFO and then an NMR unexpectedly occurs instead. If WFO is used, players can email mods when a competitor has missed the time deadline, and a mod can look at game and send the TD a confirmation that player y missed the deadline. Then x number of missed deadlines are treated as an NMR and that player is disqualified and ejected from the game and the tournament (with even more consequences as suggested below).

NMR/missed deadline policy should be set to start the tournament, and should not be altered. We started with 2 NMR's equals expulsion, and that rule was changed after the fact. Perhaps it should be 2 NMR's per GAME (with a bonus NMR per game that goes over 20 or so years), and x total NMR's, so it is a more generous number. But that should be set at tourney start, and adhered to.

There needs to be a GR rating PENALTY for players who drop out mid-game. If a sub is needed to start a new game, that's fine, but players who drop out mid-game currently have NO GR penalty, since their GR rating is not affected. In fact, it's very possible that one or more players may have dropped out specifically to SAVE their GR ratings from going down, when they were in difficult positions! GR rating should take a hit and be treated as a game defeat for a mid-game drop out. Since that may not be possible to score in that game, the Mods could set up a fake game with 1 or more mod created meta accounts, and with the offending players forced in with no right to enter orders, to give an actual DEFEAT to all players who abandon mid game! I guarantee that would reduce mid-game drop outs!

NMR's or "missed deadlines with WFO" above the limit, that cause a players ejection would also give that player a "Defeat" and hurt his/her GR rating. I guarantee that would reduce NMR's and missed deadlines!

Perhaps a bigger pool of subs should be kept at the start of the tournament as well, by filling fewer boards to start.

This is my third set of leagues I have played in and have generally enjoyed them all.

1. The tounrament website is awesome. The issue is that you cannot get to there or to the GR very easy. It really should be a link or something on the front page since it is used for so many of the tournaments that run here....not to mention for Ghost Ratings.

2. I like playing against the same pool of people and some of the Meta aspects of the game....specifically trying to build relationships, both positive and negative, over multiple games and balancing that over the course of the league season. HOWEVER, the part of the Meta that I do not like is having two or more games going at once. I didnt feel comfortable with actions in one game directly affecting the other game such as "That asshole stabbed me just now in Game 2 so I am going to stab him back in Game 3" while at the same time it was kind of unclear if you were allowed to explicitly threaten something with that. I hate to say it because it extends the leagues length but maybe the space between all games starting should be extended a little bit.

3. Gold as a TD was fine....he is reasonable and not hasty in his decision making. However, agree with Chluke that you need to either let NMRs happen or use WFO and have a punishment for those who abuse it. Its just not realistic to expect a TD to manually monitor all the games and "catch" an NMR just before it happens and "rolling back" phases is simply a punishment to those who did not NMR.

And yes, I know you can find the Tournament/GR website in the "Help section" but that is a very buried very obscure location for something like that. "Help" means its a place you go for HELP. Not a place you go for "Tournament Website" or "Ghost Rating Ranking System".

I haven't played in the leagues, so my perspective is a bit different. I'm just seeing a lot of talk about how NMRs and CDs mess up the league. It would seem to me that the league could become a perpetual league much like the King of the Mountain series of games.

I like the promotion and relegation idea. I'd tweak it a bit though:

Premier League
League A1 / A2 / A3
League B1 / B2 / B3

That's seven divisions. I'd have two players move up and two players move down for promotion and relegation. B1 is promoted to A1, etc. However, A1 is relegated to B2, A2 into B3, and A3 into B1. This shuffles the player base around a bit to keep things interesting. You could also relegate the two A1 players randomly, one each into B2 and B3, etc and achieve the same effect.

I'd also suggest having single games run across all divisions and then doing a round of promotion and relegation. Multiple games requires a significant time commitment. If you join the league, you should be ready to make that commitment, but that doesn't necessarily mean real life won't intrude. This also minimizes the impact of NMRs/CDs because you can just relegate them out of the league if they are slackers. You might also have a minimum RR% to join the league.

Lastly, it should be possible to ensure that players don't have the same great power two games in a row. If by some stroke of luck you alternate between Austria and Turkey each new round, well that's just how it goes.

I'll probably sign on for the next league. Looks like fun!

I miss the leagues.

I find it odd people complaining about familiarity. That was part of the charm and challenge, getting to know people (esp. Not being an anon tourney) and getting to figure out how to beat them based on their reputation among the other players in your game. This meta-social aspect of it was at least as important as the meta-gaming aspect ( of fighting for league position ) Which would suffer greatly with a series of dropouts.

I do appreciate the league games as they are a guaranteed game. I find it difficult to get into some new games, so the regularity is good for me.

Again, good commentary by all and I will get back and address some points and toss around ideas.

But two things I'd like to say right now:

1) The tournament will always be non-anon. The meta-social aspect orathaic mentions is what made it unique.
2) I'm open to not allowing repeat countries at all during the tournament, and that could be a new rule moving forward.

I think any discussion on changes should revolve around the timeframe. Do we want this to be something that happens twice a year or once a year or maybe rotating like every 9 months. Once that is decided we can see what tweeks are needed to help it improve.

Ps- despite all the crap I give goldfinger0303 via PMs I will say he gets a passing grade from me as far as being a TD.