"obi-goebbels posted,..."You support and glorify people responsible for killing millions of my people, do so without remorse, couldn't give two shits about the Jews suffering now..."

Oh pity the poor suffering Jews. Oh those horrible Mercedes Benz dealerships, with their high lease rates. Oh those stupid degenerate goyim legislators and their usury laws. Oh those blonde shiksas, with their tennis outfits and their blowjobs. When will it end..... "

This is quite obviously and overtly anti Semitic. Seems like Maple will never learn his lesson.

"We should not encourage extreme racist propaganda on the forum, whether it is banned or not..... "

...

@Jamiet:

"*Calls someone else smug and pretentions*

*Attempts to illustrate his point with clever-clever literary reference*

Yeah, ok."

I haven't made a literary reference in a WHILE with these Gaza posts--I think the last one was quoting Julius Caesar once, and that was when the 72-hour ceasefire was broken, so more than a week and hundreds of posts ago?

Whereas the Ever-Perfect Putin and Chairman continue to condescend and moralize while backing mass murderers that are not only despicable towards women and minorities, but are SO despicable in that regard that poll after poll has shown that as incredibly-unpopular as Israel is internationally due to this conflict, Hamas is consistently even LOWER.

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-israel-hamas-poll-20140728-story.html
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/07/29/poll-twice-as-many-americans-blame-hamas-for-gaza-violence-than-israel/
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183779

THIS Anti-Israel poll I'll include, both for fairness, and because I think it demonstrates a key reason I think Israel's losing the popularity game:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/latest-gallup-poll-shows-young-americans-overwhelmingly-support-palestine/194856/

Look at the table provided:

When asked Israel vs. Hamas, Israel's ahead barely, 42% saying it's justified, 39% saying it's not, 20% pulling a Switzerland and staying neutral. Hamas' numbers?

11% say they're justified...70% say they're not.

BUT:

When it's framed Israel vs. Palestine?

42/34 for Israel, they essentially stay the same...

17% to 62% for the Palestinians.

The kicker?

The data being compared uses "Palestinians" from 2002, and "Hamas" from 2014.

HAMAS, with the exception of a few folks here and there (and, of course, right here on WebDip), is as unpopular as ever...and yet, Israel slips in popularity as well.

I'm willing to bet that if you asked people if they support the Palestinians, a majority would say yes...frame it as asking if they support Hamas, however, the party and government currently doing the actual, practical fighting for the Palestinians in Gaza, you'd get the same overwhelming NO as the table shows.

It's one thing to hashtag and post statuses and say you're with the Palestinians in an ideological level...
It's a whole other thing to say you support Gaza's actual government and party, Hamas, and the practicalities that come along with that support.

And that's what's different about this war--social media.

It's extremely easy to hashtag for Palestinians...but how many do you think actually take the time to look at who they're represented by, what Hamas is, what Hamas has said and done, how they treat their women and minorities, and all that good stuff?

Now, our lovely staff here has obviously done that...so, I can't argue Putin or Chairman are siding with Hamas out of ignorance--no no no, they're WELL AWARE of just how truly despicable this group is, and either don't care or...no, actually, that's about the size of it, they don't care...anything Hamas does against Israel they justify by it being Israel and thus it's OK, and anything about genocide or women's rights being restricted or their attitudes towards minorities...pfff...who cares about THAT, right?

But that aside, I think that's a fair thing to argue, Jamiet, that how you frame the "who do you support?" question matters immensely. It's far and few between who will actually support Hamas vs. Israel...but a majority support "Palestine" vs. Israel...

But because they're not supporting the actual Palestinian leadership conducting this war in Gaza, ie, Hamas, these are people that support the "idea" of Palestine, rather than the actual reality--and that's hashtag activism at its finest.

This is #Kony2012 or #RonPaul2012 or #FreeUkraine etc etc etc...

People identifying with the idea of something, but then totally forgetting about it and moving on to the next thing, because these are people empathizing with the idea of Palestinians, NOT with the actual practical reality of the Palestinian leadership or their actual stances on domestic and foreign policy, and especially not with Hamas itself.

Again, this is less to do with us here than with the larger social media-scape...because frankly, Hamas' best chance to win this has already passed...

Because if there's one thing that ALL those above examples show, it's that if a conflict or an issue drags on long enough, or doesn't immediately come to fruition, the Twitterverse moves on to the next thing, and people fall away from the cause, leaving the diehards behind...and wouldn't you know it, a lot of those diehards, you know, kinda sorta already have their positions set, and thus won't budge the needle either way.

What's more, people don't go out and read whole news stories as much as they read what's posted to their feed now...and if it's not in either an oversimplified meme form, or a link to an article on a trending topic...they don't care.

It's trendy now to hashtag and trend along with the idea of Palestine...but few are signing on to the actual practicalities of backing Hamas here...

So give it a few weeks, or however long it goes--as soon as the next big story breaks, it'll get swept away from the public imagination so fast CNN might start remembering it once did more than interview the same 12 people on the Middle East and cover plane crashes obsessively with "experts" and move on as well.

I'm not bothering to follow this thread but one thing jumped into my view:

"Writing bullshit is apparently recession-proof."

Not just that, bullshit is *always* ahead of the game because it's always cheaper to propose something than it is to definitively refute it. Debates can always be expanded until there is not enough time to refute everything.

^Well, that...

And, again, there's always a market for diet pills and male enhancement pills and "dating advice"...and, of course, electronics marketed with shameless ripping off of great literature--

"It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a Samsung flat-screen LCD "52 TV."

Jane Austen at her finest, people. :p

Love how obi has been "done" with this debate multiple times in this very thread but actually just uses that so he doesn't have to respond to anyone.

"Now, our lovely staff here has obviously done that...so, I can't argue Putin or Chairman are siding with Hamas out of ignorance--no no no, they're WELL AWARE of just how truly despicable this group is, and either don't care or...no, actually, that's about the size of it, they don't care...anything Hamas does against Israel they justify by it being Israel and thus it's OK, and anything about genocide or women's rights being restricted or their attitudes towards minorities...pfff...who cares about THAT, right?"

Ah yes, big bad Putin and Chairman, supporting those genocidal Hamas who have killed all of dozens of Israelis this conflict, compared to Israel which has killed.....how many again? That's ignoring the fact that you haven't posted a single thing about Hamas' treatment of women or minorities, just taking that one on faith of course.

It's funny that you're so flippantly against hashtag activism all of a sudden. Wasn't that your solution for the Palestinian people? Get on social media and start an uprising? Guess that's not possible if social media is useless and ever shifting. It's almost like you create no-win scenarios for

Palestinians

Obi is the same guy who relentlessly mocked Occupy Wall Street. Oh but he's for "activism" now, sure he is.

just gonna re-post this for the new page because obi apparently got so mad when he read it he flew into a cursing fit after. the truth hurts

You're again missing the forest for a tree. You're so tunnel visioned on Hamas you're failing to see the larger picture. I've shown you time and time again how Israel enacts aggressive, immoral, racist, and outright genocidal policies when it comes to Hamas, beyond anything that Hamas could ever dream of enacting, and you still go to bat for them.

That's the main issue here. While Hamas has a lot of bark, I see that for what is is; big talk with nothing to back it up. You ignore how Hamas isn't an aberration in history, but the sign of a people struggling under oppression. What's mind numbing is how you hold contradictory positions. West Bank bad, Gaza good. Again, you damn millions for the acts of a few, while making excuses for Israel when they purposefully sabotage the peace process.

Would you make the same posts defending South African apartheid? Turkish and Iraqi extermination of the Kurds? Qaddafi's crackdown on Arab Spring protesters? All these things have the same vein running through them; a harsh system of power pushing down on minorities without power. This is the exact situation in Israel and it is no less a crime than any of these previous examples.

The fact is you read but you do not see

"Obi is the same guy who relentlessly mocked Occupy Wall Street. Oh but he's for "activism" now, sure he is."

Putin is the same guy who insisted the hippies didn't do or influence shit...but he's OK with Occupy Wall Street now...because that amounted to so much...

"It's funny that you're so flippantly against hashtag activism all of a sudden. Wasn't that your solution for the Palestinian people? Get on social media and start an uprising? Guess that's not possible if social media is useless and ever shifting. It's almost like you create no-win scenarios for Palestinians"

1. I've hated on hashtag activism for years...? O.o

2. There was a tangible difference between the Arab Spring and Occupy Wall Street...in that the former had people using Twitter and Facebook for more than idle hashtagging but rather (get this, are you ready?) actually DID THINGS AS WELL. I'm sorry, hashtagging all day is NOT activism...whereas overthrowing Mubarak by actually showing up and DOING SOMETHING kinda sorta, you know, WAS.

3. This is Reason #96 why I absolutely hate debating you--neither you nor Putin have any sense of nuance whatsoever. If I criticize hashtag activism, you leap to the extreme that ALL possible forms and uses of social media are coming under attack, which is not what I'm saying in the slightest...in the same way that my criticizing a very specific subset of the Palestinians, ie, Hamas, for very specific reasons gets construed as "Obi hates all Palestinians ever."

That's not debate.

That's you grossly exaggerating and not being honest...and that's not even enjoyable to debate against, when I have to constantly deal with your going to the extremes when I by no means am stating those extremes. It makes any conversation with you 50 posts of me trying to clarify a point over and over to a person who is never satisfied with the clarification because, to him, debate is NOT for an exchange of ideas the way tendmote promotes, but just this, over and over and over...tell me why I should even bother at this point?

4. "Guess that's not possible if social media is useless and ever shifting. It's almost like you create no-win scenarios for Palestinians."

...Um...they ARE in a no-win scenario!

Was that not the point of at least a good chunk of your own posts, just how desperate their plight is and how six ways from Sunday screwed they really are???

I don't *have* to create a "no-win" scenario for them, Hamas, Egypt, Israel, Qatar, and just about every other goddamn nation or power involved in this is doing a damned good job of that by themselves!

5. I hate responding to you both personally because of, again, your attitudes and the fact that absolutely nothing is ever, ever, EVER good enough for either of you...and not just from me. It is the rare occasion I see either of you concede a point fully to someone you're fully opposed to in an argument, whether it be this or discussing music or literature or football or whatever else.

That's. Not. Enjoyable. Or. Fulfilling.

Why should I give a damn about what you post, Chairman, and how many links you post, when anything I or anyone opposing says is irrelevant to you?

There's only so many times I can read your links, respond to them, say I still disagree, have you say the exact same goddamned thing, and still want to come back for more. I did that already. Repeatedly. I think at least a half-dozen times. In posts that were thousands of words long.

Give me a reason I should continue to waste time with you, if nothing I do for you is ever ever ever satisfactory and, indeed, I see few to any other that completely disagreeing with you being told they're satisfactory for you, either?

Tell me why I should care at this point?

The ONLY reason I respond now and, indeed, the only reason I've been responding for about the last week is because I don't like to give the impression to others here that I back away from a discussion...that's why I've never muted anyone, and never will, even when they say the worst shit about me or pull a mapleleaf. I'm not here for your benefit. At all. Frankly, you two are so much the same thing it's a wonder you're not attached at the hip...and again, one of you was already one too many in my opinion.

Bullshit articles or no, give me a reason why I should WANT to talk to you rather than write those articles and make more money? I literally give up my own time and money to message here...so I prefer that, in doing so, it at least be somewhat enjoyable...and at least semck and ghug and abgemacht and Jamiet and just about everyone NOT you two afford some form of interest or make that worthwhile...

Why should I sacrifice pay to have you insult me, spit in my face and piss on anything and everything I say while taking things to the fallacious extremes and giving no indication that you care to discuss so much as you care to have a flame war to match the shooting war going on in Gaza?

Why should I WANT to bother with either of you at this point?

(And do you mind me asking what either of you two do for work, that you apparently have time to blow hours and apparently not blow pay?)

"the truth hurts"

It does. It really does.

Which is why it pains me so much that you skip right the hell over it to plunge into a flame war while congratulating yourself on being able to "see."

Good for you. I'm so glad that you're wiser and more enlightened then anyone else here--except your dear friend Putin, of course--and that anyone who thinks contrary to you in any way at all whatsoever is blind.

Because THAT'S good, constructive political discourse--

"If you disagree with me, you're blind, and I'm perfect and can see it all with perfect clarity, huzzah for me!"

Now, if your fingers aren't too sticky from that masturbatory act of self-flattery and congratulation for the umpteenth time, perhaps you can have an actual conversation?

No? OK. Enjoy yourself then.

"2. There was a tangible difference between the Arab Spring and Occupy Wall Street...in that the former had people using Twitter and Facebook for more than idle hashtagging but rather (get this, are you ready?) actually DID THINGS AS WELL. I'm sorry, hashtagging all day is NOT activism...whereas overthrowing Mubarak by actually showing up and DOING SOMETHING kinda sorta, you know, WAS."

And there's a tangible difference between the Arab Spring and the Gaza situation. A mass rally formed on social media, the kind of thing you're calling for (not just hashtag activism), is the kind of thing that is routinely broken down and disrupted by Israel. It's kind of hard to protest and overthrow you're own government when you're being bombed day and night by an outside enemy that shoots anything in the open.

"3. This is Reason #96 why I absolutely hate debating you--neither you nor Putin have any sense of nuance whatsoever. If I criticize hashtag activism, you leap to the extreme that ALL possible forms and uses of social media are coming under attack, which is not what I'm saying in the slightest...in the same way that my criticizing a very specific subset of the Palestinians, ie, Hamas, for very specific reasons gets construed as "Obi hates all Palestinians ever."

I can't speak for Putin but I've never said you hate all Palestinians ever. If we tend to lack nuance, you tend to exaggerate what other people are saying to make an easy point. And WE'RE not enjoyable to debate? Imagine having to read 10+ paragraphs every post just to glean one or two points....

"4. "Guess that's not possible if social media is useless and ever shifting. It's almost like you create no-win scenarios for Palestinians."

...Um...they ARE in a no-win scenario!

Was that not the point of at least a good chunk of your own posts, just how desperate their plight is and how six ways from Sunday screwed they really are???
"

Hey good, glad we can agree! That doesn't mean the solutions you offer are empty and backhanded.

"5. I hate responding to you both personally because of, again, your attitudes and the fact that absolutely nothing is ever, ever, EVER good enough for either of you...and not just from me. It is the rare occasion I see either of you concede a point fully to someone you're fully opposed to in an argument, whether it be this or discussing music or literature or football or whatever else."

I've conceded plenty of points Obi, especially on Hamas. It's you who fails to do so. Not but a page ago you asked for a specific instance of something, I provided it, and you went on for multiple posts questioning the source when it wasn't even primary but a secondary source. You are willfully ignorant.

"There's only so many times I can read your links, respond to them, say I still disagree, have you say the exact same goddamned thing, and still want to come back for more. I did that already. Repeatedly. I think at least a half-dozen times. In posts that were thousands of words long."

You can't read links about Israeli soldiers targeting non-Hamas civilians, Israel's racist policies against minorities in its own country, and its extremist rhetoric that seeks to cleanse Israel of the Palestinian people, and simply go "I disagree". This is what I'm talking about when I say you're not engaging. You have to refute or disagree with substance. Tell me why you disagree. Because as of now you think that simply restating your position is sufficient to disagree and think advancing pages is advancing the debate.

"Give me a reason I should continue to waste time with you, if nothing I do for you is ever ever ever satisfactory and, indeed, I see few to any other that completely disagreeing with you being told they're satisfactory for you, either?

Tell me why I should care at this point?"

No. The moment you stop going to bat for Israel's terrible policies and maybe even denounce Israel's efforts against Gaza is the moment I pull back. As long as you're posting drivel I'll make sure it is challenged.

And I honestly don't know why you lose money to post here. THat's only something you can ask yourself. Sure you're not being paying to post tho?

I work nights

"Now, if your fingers aren't too sticky from that masturbatory act of self-flattery and congratulation for the umpteenth time, perhaps you can have an actual conversation?

No? OK. Enjoy yourself then. "

I'm trying to have one. You're not responding to anything in that post and instead just insulting me. That's the second time you've only quoted one line from it and used it to attack my character. A conversation is a two way street obi and it usually involves the sharing of ideas.

"I'm trying to have one. You're not responding to anything in that post and instead just insulting me. That's the second time you've only quoted one line from it and used it to attack my character. A conversation is a two way street obi and it usually involves the sharing of ideas."

You and Putin have attacked ME so many times that the conversation part of this has broken down! And as it's 2 vs. 1, even if I respond to one of you conversationally, the other one's a 50/50 shot on any post to get a dig in at me...

"I work nights"

...So do I, but as my job involves sitting in front of a laptop, my digressions here at 1am PST are explanatory...what job are you doing at night where you can afford to do this?

"No. The moment you stop going to bat for Israel's terrible policies and maybe even denounce Israel's efforts against Gaza is the moment I pull back. As long as you're posting drivel I'll make sure it is challenged."

^That's *not" wanting "a two way street" or "sharing ideas," Chairman...

Not when you say one of the street is categorically and utterly wrong, and denounce anyone trying to defend that side of the street at all in any capacity whatsoever.

I *AT LEAST* allow for the Palestinian side of things sans Hamas. I 100% admit denounce anything pro-Hamas, but I'll at least entertain other sides of the Palestinian question...

How is this a debate, or how can it ever be one, when you shoot down anything on the Israeli-side to this?

Decide--either it's a two way street and both sides should be considered, or it's you getting up on a soapbox and declaring your side right and the other one wrong and anyone who disagrees with that is spouting drivel.

"You can't read links about Israeli soldiers targeting non-Hamas civilians, Israel's racist policies against minorities in its own country, and its extremist rhetoric that seeks to cleanse Israel of the Palestinian people, and simply go "I disagree". This is what I'm talking about when I say you're not engaging. You have to refute or disagree with substance. Tell me why you disagree."

-_-

I have told you SO MANY TIMES BY NOW WHY I DISAGREE...

Why I think you're mis-characterizing this conflict...
Why I think your language is loaded, slanted, biased and unfair...
Why I think your treatment of Hamas is abhorrent...
Why I dislike Hamas...
Why I think Hamas must go...
Who I would like to replace Hamas...
What I would advocate instead of Hamas' actions...
And on and on and on.

I have said it so many times by now I'm sick and tired of saying it, and this is why I'm sick and tired of posting (well, one reason.)

I. HAVE. SAID. IT. ALREADY.

You can claim I've said it poorly or what have you, but this post #435 on just THIS thread, one of several on this topic...

*DON'T* tell me I haven't told you why I disagree with you!!! Come ON!

"Because as of now you think that simply restating your position is sufficient to disagree and think advancing pages is advancing the debate."

You've been restating your position over and over as well!

You've been saying the same things over and over again for the better part of a month now!

You supply links...I supply links...

You say a video from palwatch that's a feed of Al-Aqsa is a bad source...
I say a post from ElectronicIntifada is a bad source...

We do the same damn things, I'm TIRED, Chairman.

All you do is spout the same anti-Israel spiel over and over and over, while I say the same anti-Hamas lines, we cite links, criticize those links, wash, rinse, repeat.

"I've conceded plenty of points Obi, especially on Hamas."

O.O

No you haven't...anything I say about Hamas, even when backed up with a video from Hamas itself, you fight and fight and fight...

*SIGH*

I'm tired of this debate, and tired of doing it this way, so I'll tell you what--

I'll debate you in the same format we had for The Great Debate.

Ask Putin about it for the rules and format and such...and since I lost my portion of that debate soundly, you should have the advantage anyway.

But AT LEAST then it won't be 400 posts back and forth devolving into saying the same shit over and over and attacking me and me attacking you and both sides pointing fingers at the others.

Because I'm really, really, REALLY goddamn sick of this at this point...

Let's do this in a structured debate--with moderators--and be done with it already, because at this point, this is ridiculous.

I'll say as a coda to all that--

Besides you two and our dear babbling Antisemitic friend Nigee, no one else here has flat-out demonized Israel, and that'd be my Complaint #1 with your assessment of this whole conflict, both in terms of this specific war and the larger conflict.

Even those that view this as Israel's fault and strongly criticize it have not outright demonized it and treated its people and leaders in the way you have.

You cannot have an honest, "two way conversation" when you demonize the whole of one side...again, I haven't demonized Abbas or his faction...

But you demonize every last Israeli and Israeli leader and soldier in your comments. There's zero room for discussion when you do that. You cannot claim you want a balanced debate on this and then demonize one entire side that way.

It's very much like saying you want a "fair and balanced" political debate and then crucifying any and all Democrats as scum of the Earth.

Here goes the first time I've ever muted a thread (except for one test to see how mute worked.)

Well, that's just great...well done, guys...

At least we contributed to a WebDip personal first, lol.

Obi, if I may offer an observation: I don't think it's constructive to continue to equate criticism of Israeli government policies or criticism of Netanyahu and other top officials with criticism or hatred of "every last Israeli." I doubt anyone here intends that, wouldn't you agree?

"Obi, if I may offer an observation: I don't think it's constructive to continue to equate criticism of Israeli government policies or criticism of Netanyahu and other top officials with criticism or hatred of "every last Israeli." I doubt anyone here intends that, wouldn't you agree?"


I don't agree. Again and again its main plain and clear that the majority of debaters against Israel do NOT mean the Israeli government and continuously refer to the Israeli people.

I of course refer to on this board, others I see debating outside this board are far more reasonable.

"I don't agree. Again and again its main plain and clear that the majority of debaters against Israel do NOT mean the Israeli government and continuously refer to the Israeli people."

Can you cite a single passage to back that up? I've always been critical of the government and its policies itself

@ SantaClausowitz: I have repeatedly taken pains to use the phrase "the Israeli government" or "the Israeli army" and NOT "Israelis" - and largely I agree with Chairman that he has done the same.

So when you talk about "the majority of debaters against Israel" I'll presume you're talking about someone else.

Well, for starters, Chairman, whereas I distinguish between Hamas, Abbas' faction, and the Palestinian people in terms of civilians, you either say the Israeli government or just "Israel."

What's more, you have not named one Israeli that you actually APPROVE of...I've named Abbas...he's not perfect in my view, at all, but he's at least reasonable...you just wholesale chuck every last Israeli leader in the bin--is there not ONE Israeli legislative or executive leader (to borrow the American parlance) that you approve of?

That makes your account seem even more biased than mine--I have a definite bias, but I at least acknowledge there ARE good/reasonable Palestinian leaders...you don't do that, you treat Israeli leadership as wholesale bad, and frankly, it's the rare, rare instance where that's so, and if you really think that's the case, then you need to prove to me why EVERY Israeli leader is bad.

Finally, we've had folks here speaking out against "the Zionists." I'm going to make the daring assumption that, given that they owe their country to Zionism at least in part, most Israelis are Zionist, so a knock at Zionists is a knock on them as well.

You simply don't present a balanced account.

That's not to say *I* have, either, but only to say you haven't, Chairman...unless you want to convince me the whole Israeli leadership is bad, you can't treat is as blanketly bad (again, I allow for the good and bad among Palestinian leadership) and you don't say anything that credits or acknowledges the good Israelis...you ONLY reference the Israeli people in a negative way, if at all.

I think most of the people on both sides of this war are good people...Israel has disgraceful, extremists as does America with the KKK, and Gaza is run by disgraceful extremists in the form of Hamas (and if anyone wants to say Hamas ISN'T extreme...if vocalizing genocidal intent with something like "exterminate the Jews to the last one" and having ties to the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't represent extremism, what does? And yes, those Israelis who claim they want to get rid of Palestinians are extremists by that same vein, too--but that doesn't stop Hamas from being extremist in its own right, and THEY rule Gaza.)

You don't acknowledge the goodness of Israelis, though, on the political or citizen side--any reference to them is always, always, always negative...

And that's simply not a fair account of this. You may think it's fair, Putin and Nigee certainly thinks it's fair, but it isn't fair, and it's certainly not balanced.

"Finally, we've had folks here speaking out against 'the Zionists.' I'm going to make the daring assumption that, given that they owe their country to Zionism at least in part, most Israelis are Zionist, so a knock at Zionists is a knock on them as well."

Well, that's just not reasonable, since the word, "Zionist," and the words, "Israeli," or, "Jew," don't mean the same thing. Not even all Jews support Zionism, e.g. http://www.truetorahjews.org/our_mission. Additionally, both Chairman and Jamiet just specifically said that they are critical of the Israeli government's policies and not its people. I don't think you're seeing what you think you're seeing.

I'll go through these posts and show each and every instance tomorrow or when I have time.