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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 168 of 413
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ssorenn (0 D X)
27 Jun 14 UTC
who wants to game?
WTA,ANON,24 hour phases, and FULL PRESS

1 reply
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D (B))
27 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
On nationalism and immigration
Seems legit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsPDT5qHtZ4
0 replies
Open
Kallen (1169 D)
26 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
Coastal Movement
Normally, when two units make a move to each other's territories, it causes a bounce (Rhur moves to Munich while Munich moves to Rhur). However, would coasts be treated as different territories for fleets? For example, could a fleet in Spain (nc) move to MAO while another fleet in MAO moved to Spain (sc)? Same with Bulgarian coasts and Constantinople. Thanks in advance!
14 replies
Open
mapleleaf (0 D X)
25 May 14 UTC
(+1)
Elliot Rodger shoots a whole bunch of students.
Thank God they were all americans. 6 of them died. Hee hee. U.S.A.! U.S.A.! U.S.A.!
211 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
22 Jun 14 UTC
The Favorite Author Tournament: THE FINAL FOUR!
OK, sorry for the delay...and the continued delay--we'll start Midnight tonight. ORWELL! DICKENS! POE! TOLKIEN! Who will advance?

And a bonus question, just for schnicks and giggles--what's the first book you read after high school (or, if it was a while ago, the earliest book you can remember reading after high school?) Just curious to see what we get.
136 replies
Open
Kallen (1169 D)
27 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
America Hate Thread
Putin, mapleleaf, and anybody else who feels the need to express disdain about the US, please feel free to share your feels in here. Everyone else, don't click open and have one less thing to piss you off =]
19 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D (G))
27 Jun 14 UTC
You can put lip-stick on Ann Poulter but ........
http://www.salon.com/2014/06/26/ann_coulter_no_american_whose_great_grandfather_was_born_here_is_watching_soccer/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
29 replies
Open
Dunecat (5899 D)
27 Jun 14 UTC
Starting a new game, my friends. It's been a minute.
New game, open to all. Classic map, 500 D buy-in, winner takes all.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=143927
0 replies
Open
ILN (100 D)
27 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
'Lazy Greeks' aren't so lazy after all
http://euobserver.com/social/124761#.U6wWJN4c02x.facebook

0 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
26 Jun 14 UTC
Worst Non-Sitcom TV Show You've Ever Watched? (4 Episodes Minimum)
Friends were raving about this Netflix show, "Orange is the New Black." Watched. ..It's awful. Wall to wall. The main lead (not the actress herself, she seems to be trying, at least) is like the adult equivalent of Bella Swann meets Every Yuppie Character Ever. Every character's a stereotype. Every guy is a perv, sex-crazed ass, douche, OR just has no life whatsoever. The writing is as bad as I've seen...and yet, this won awards? xD So, worst shows?
73 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D (G))
25 Jun 14 UTC
Is it just me or .....
..... is there a lot of death and destruction going on at the minute.
91 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 D X)
26 Jun 14 UTC
JMO = King Mod
We all want to thank JMO for his service to the site.

No crying from the Mods!!!!!!!!!
23 replies
Open
glisbao (185 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
Populism and Democracy
I've heard in here that populism is the plague that affects democracy (the topic praising appeasement). I would like people to elaborate on the subject - how does populism undermine the democratic principles, and what can we learn about this in history?
56 replies
Open
ArmaGGedon (100 D)
26 Jun 14 UTC
live game
hi, someone to anime live game :P
3 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D (G))
26 Jun 14 UTC
The link between having a large penis and self-confidence
Here is something you guys should all know something about, please share your thoughts if you've got the balls to do so :-)
11 replies
Open
peterwiggin (15279 D Mod (S))
25 Jun 14 UTC
Man walks into McDonald's with knife in back
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-mcdonalds-knife-back-20140625-story.html
12 replies
Open
rayanking (0 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
join fast victory 4 $$$
it's a great and a live game, it cost only 10 D and in classic map. So let the game start.:)
2 replies
Open
jmo1121109 (3812 D Mod)
18 Jun 14 UTC
Many open games
Today's number is 38. I suggest everyone check out some of the open games. Post here with any games you take over for the next 48 hours and you'll get reimbursed for them. PM me for anonymous games. Games with more then 1 banned cheater will probably be cancelled so don't join them.
58 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
Appeasement: unfairly maligned strategy?
I've been reading quite a bit about British & French foreign policy at the turn of the century, and it seems like appeasement (reduction of tensions through concessions) has gotten an unnecessarily bad reputation.
19 replies
Open
Tolstoy (1958 D)
22 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
Can atheists believe in free will?
If our consciousness is simply a product of the mushy 3-dimensional circuit board we call a brain, governed entirely by the fixed and unchanging laws of physics and chemistry, is there any kind of free will? Or are all our decisions in life predetermined, like a computer program running through its code, simply responding to various inputs?
126 replies
Open
rojimy1123 (597 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
Taking over CDs
I have recently taken over 2 positions in games where players left. I am wondering why my profile says I haven't taken over CD's at all.
8 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
20 Jun 14 UTC
Again--This is NOT a Christian Country...
http://news.yahoo.com/republicans-obama-must-defend-christian-values-192212780--election.html Christians live here--AND Jews, AND Muslims, AND Buddhists and Hindus and Atheists (fastest growing group!) AND dozens of others (including, hey, all those Native American tribes and religions...many of which were criminalized in part until the 1970s)...WHY? Why must Obama defend the values of a specific sect, when the Constitution clearly is anti-favoritism in terms of religion?
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Crazy Anglican (701 D)
20 Jun 14 UTC
(+2)
Because it's pandering to a power base? It's how politicians get elected?

You do play Diplomacy, right?
abgemacht (1076 D (G))
20 Jun 14 UTC
(+5)
The only thing harder than getting obi to stop writing on the Forum is getting him to send press in a Diplomacy game.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
20 Jun 14 UTC
I understand that 100%, lol...it's more a lamenting "WHY?" than an actual question.

;)

But goddamn it...I'm so sick of this...

You know, I maintain my atheism since our debate, CA, and I think I could argue my position a lot better now than I could then, but that notwithstanding...

I GET that Christianity makes people happy and inspires them. I do.

I still think it's a bad idea and ideologically and logically and morally it fails and that other things could inspire Christians just as much and that, frankly, Christian writers do a FAR better job extolling the virtues of Christianity than the Gospels or holy writings of Christianity itself (Dostoyevsky, C.S. Lewis, Dante and Milton have done a better job representing those ideas than the whole New Testament.)

But that's fine...as long as you're not influencing public policy, or I have to hear about it, you know what? Fine. It's a big country, big enough for everyone...except those Native American groups, apparently, but still--it's big enough to where I can enjoy a life in that haven of heathens California, and the religious can enjoy Boston or the South or a lot of the Heartland or wherever else...plenty of room...

Not everyone's going to like Shakespeare, or be inspired by him, and that's fine--

I don't FORCE people to read or confront the guy.

I talk about him a ton, but I'd never ask Obama to champion Shakespearean values (though 1. I'd take those over a lot of the "Christian values" being championed in this country and 2. Hey, who WOULDN'T rather a Shakespeare Day instead of Columbus Day? Make it happen!) :p

This kind of ploy just makes America look stupid on the world stage, and frankly is insulting to those of us who AREN'T Christian...or even to Christians who are perhaps tired of the reputation the Religious Right has saddled them with (and they're out there...I know Christians who are just happy to read their Bibles and worship and don't like the negative attention the GOP brings them through stunts like this.)
bo_sox48 (5202 D Mod (G))
20 Jun 14 UTC
No I'm not reading that not one word.
semck83 (229 D (B))
20 Jun 14 UTC
Obi, it's exceptionally naive to think tha tany value system shared by millions of people in this country will "not [be] influencing public policy." That's completely impossible, actually.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
20 Jun 14 UTC
There's influencing public policy, and then there's "We want the President to endorse it."

There are degrees of influence is what I'm saying.
Crazy Anglican (701 D)
20 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
So it's fine that Christians influence public policy, so long as they aren't so overt as to get the President's approval?
Crazy Anglican (701 D)
20 Jun 14 UTC
ok I'll stop.

I'm just messing with you.

As to the debate. Yes, that was fun, and I have no doubt it would be tougher now (it was quite tough enough then). I can't say that I ever expected any of the participants to change their minds. I am curious if I got you to rethink any of those quotes from Christopher Hitchens, though.
Putin33 (111 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
Obi-wan,

I am curious as to how you separate your outrage about the USA being Christian, and your enthusiasm for Israel insisting on it being a Jewish state despite the much larger presence of religious minorities there.

At the very least, your outrage-o-meter seems quite selective.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
PUTIN!

:D

WHERE. HAVE. YOU. BEEN? :D

OH, screw my questions and anything else I had to say, Putin, Putin Putin Putin...

SO may questions...I was starting to wonder if your namesake had sent you out to the front to go kill some Ukrainians!

But to answer your question:

I again think Israel CAN be a Jewish state and secular, because there is such a thing as a secular Jew...I am one, after all. I believe in Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people, NOT as a bastion for Judaism the religion. Israel's done some terrible things human rights-wise, and I blame their sitting far-Right government and far-Right settlers for that, but I very much see that as a case of the extremes pushing the moderates...a minority (or at least nearly an even split) giving a bad name to the others, and that, in their (partial) defense, they're surrounded by Hamas, Hezbollah, and now this new threat rising in Syria and Iraq...

Israel DOES overreact, it's wrong, but as I've said repeatedly on this forum, I think that sometimes a state has to resort to political measures that aren't necessarily on the moral up and up--it's nasty and terrible and wrong, but that's humanity (and politics) for you. I think Israel will look back on those violations with shame, but I also think Israel is capable of change, and that the younger generation largely shares the vision of the Israeli Left, for a more open and secularized Jewish homeland, and so while Hamas and Hezbollah are permanent scourges that must be destroyed, Israel, at least, has the capacity, still, to be changed and rescued.

So that's my short(ish) answer--

I celebrate Israel as a Jewish homeland based on what *I* view as Jewishness, which is far more secular than religious in the 21st century. What's more, Zionism was backed by many Jews for political reasons, ranging from Marxists to capitalists, and their vision was a bit closer--though not in perfect alignment--with mine, so I can say that Israel is, again, the Land of the Jews, but that doesn't mean it has to be the Land of Judaism or Judaic dominance, let alone at the expense of minorities' rights.

By contrast, the US' founding was largely secular or, at the very least, deist--

From Jefferson to Paine to Franklin and so on...the framers of this nation's laws and ideals were deists, and Jefferson himself--who you could argue, in both his strengths and flaws alike, is arguably the most perfect representative of America, both in its idealism ("All men are created equal") and hypocrisies (his owning slaves)--found Jesus to be a better teacher than anything and decried the miracles as irrational and nonsense...the man was NOT a Christian.

Israel as a Land of the Jews can be consistent with its foundations--

America as a Christian Country is NOT consistent with its Founders or foundational documents.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
24 Jun 14 UTC
(+4)
Hey, Putin33!

Before you disappeared, I had a question about one of your statements when you were talking about the situation in Ukraine:

"No one is going to annex anyone."

My question: have you realised you were a complete idiot yet?
Putin33 (111 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
@ Obi

That's rather weak. Presumably you object to the US declaring itself Christian because it implies that non-Christians somehow don't fully belong to America. Indeed that's the gist of what I got out of your original rant. If it were simply about the religiosity you would have focused on that. Yet your excuse for defending the demand of Israel being "Jewish" is that it's a secular identity. Even if true, so what? They still have large numbers of ethnic minorities who aren't included in that identity, regardless of whether it's religious or national. And this despite the fact that at least some have lived in this place since before the now Jewish state ever existed.

@ Steephie

Nice troll. No, not an idiot. Considering the actions of your Ukrainian nationalist friends against the civilian population of eastern Ukraine, including the massacre at the trade union building, and the rampage of the Praviy Sektor, the attacks on the Russian embassy, the firebombing of the Ukrainian Communist Party HQ, the admission that the snipers were pro-Maidan and not Yanukovich's people, I'd say the action was more than vindicated.

And I seem to recall you and your friends here predicting that Russia's annexation of Finland, the Baltics, not to mention Transniester, South Ossetia, and various people's republics of eastern Ukraine were all imminent. Yet, I doubt any of you would claim to be idiots despite those doomsday scenarios not coming true.

Certainly you're many of the same people who advocated arming the Syrian rebels who are now rampaging through Iraq and the Libyan forces who completely destabilized Mali and Nigeria. You have no leg to stand on this or any other issue where predictions come into play.
Putin33 (111 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
(+1)
Incidentally Steephie,

I recall the pro-Ukrainian nationalist people on here claiming the violent overthrow of the Yanukovich government was justified on the grounds that it was in league with "oligarchs" and "corrupting the judicial system". How is the Poroshenko regime looking on that score? I also remember the hysteria with which warning shots were met with in Crimea, yet there isn't one tear being shed about the bombing of cities in eastern Ukraine. But I suppose you don't feel like idiots, correct?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
" Presumably you object to the US declaring itself Christian because it implies that non-Christians somehow don't fully belong to America."

O.o

No. That's not what I meant OR said at all.

I said this country was NOT (as is so often repeated) founded on Christian values, but on the values and Enlightenment ideals of its Founders which, as I just stated, were overwhelmingly deist and NOT what we'd today call Christian, ergo, this country was not founded as nor is today a Christian Country.

Please read next time.

"Yet your excuse for defending the demand of Israel being "Jewish" is that it's a secular identity. Even if true, so what? They still have large numbers of ethnic minorities who aren't included in that identity, regardless of whether it's religious or national. And this despite the fact that at least some have lived in this place since before the now Jewish state ever existed."

1. So what? So they won a war against the other inhabitants (AFTER the UN offered a two-state solution, thereby beginning the long tradition of that fever dream failing tragically and dramatically) and so they get to call it a Jewish country culturally-speaking...I'm not even claiming that's morally correct (few things are in war) but it is the reality--they won, so they get to decide the cultural bent of the nation.

2. I've already said that I dislike their treatment of certain minority groups, and that they need to address that problem, either by way of a two-state solution or else by simply fixing their bigotry within their own borders (or both.) I WILL say that some of their fierce policies are inspired by fierce and utterly indefensible (though I'm sure you'll try) attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah...

When money flooding into Gaza has a way of finding its way to Hamas and thus to weaponry that kills Israelis, it's only logical to assume Israel's going to crack down on that area hard--probably TOO hard, but put yourself in their place...would you rather be too hard, and risk condemnation while stifling attempts to arm a terrorist organization bent on your destruction, or be too soft and let that destruction rain down on you from the sky and on the ground in the form of bombers? They allowed elections in Gaza, and what happened? They elected Hamas. You can't expect them to act like saints when the other side elects sinners, so to speak, particularly when those sinners are bent on attacking and killing ALL Jews.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
24 Jun 14 UTC
(+3)
@Putin33: I never even picked a side because I don't know enough details (and I admit it rather than making ridiculous claims), so don't try to pull that shit on me. 'My friends' are not nice either, but that's not the point. I also never said that they would pull that trick a couple of times. Hell, I never said they would pull it one time, I only said it was possible.

The point is that while I was trying to get a decent discussion so I could better pick a side, you insisted on making ridiculous claims, making discussion with you impossible, while all I wanted to do is assess the situation. You just insisted on making a very bad case for Putin by acting completely brainwashed instead of telling me your thoughts.

One of the claims you made is "No one is going to annex anyone." No matter how provoked and/or justified it would be if Russia annexed something, you were absolutely certain that that was not going to happen.

Since it happened, you are absolutely wrong and refused to have a normal discussion because your point was based on a made up and now disproven fact, and that was the end of it.

Where am I wrong?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
^I agree with Steephie--

You said no annexation would occur, and here we are, Crimea annexed...

But of course, Putin won't compromise, or admit to being categorically wrong.

I may cast my weight behind the wrong side, but at least I'm quicker to admit when I've done so...

I think the most stubbornly I've clung to a position recently is in regards to the whole Snowden ordeal, and as I think that response was in the thousands in terms of the word count, safe to say that right or wrong (and time may well prove me wrong) I'm sticking to my position there, I remain largely unconvinced.

(Without getting into that again too much, steephie--while I get the feeling history may well remember Snowden as a heroic whistleblower and you'll be right there, I still don't think that's wholly warranted or earned, as again, even if I accepted that he's done us sizable good and that that somehow outweighs the damage he has or could cause us, still...I really don't think it was that big or shocking of a revelation...honestly, the biggest shock to me is how many people truly feel as if it were all that shocking that such a thing can or did occur, but I digress.)

On the other hand, while I still on the whole support Obama and Israel, I can be persuaded to see their faults, and have been from time to time.
KingCyrus (511 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
@Obi

About Israel being Jewish, and America not Christian. I don't know the Israeli equivalent, but the Constitution of the US does say, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Does Israel have something similar? Or is it the right of their government to have an officially state sanctioned religion? Honestly curious.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
@KingCyrus:

I did a quick Wikipedia check to refresh myself, and I was mostly correct...

Essentially, the way it works is, in broad strokes:

1. All citizens are given equal civil rights BUT

2. Jews are given preferential treatment in certain issues such as immigration (which makes sense, as it was explicitly founded as a home for the Jews, and many of course immigrated first after the Holocaust and then after the War for Independence, even though of course many lived there before those events.)

3. The essential structure of the government is secular, it's not as if there's an overseeing religious body that makes it a theocracy, BUT
4. There ARE some Judaism-influenced laws, notably those pertaining to the Sabbath (I remember there was a big uproar when some stores sold the 7th Harry Potter book there on the Sabbath)...as in Prohibition America regarding alcohol, sometimes that's observed, and sometimes folks turn a blind eye, but there are laws that are religiously-motivated about the Sabbath, notably about stores and public transportation. There are exceptions to this, however; apparently Haifa, unlike most of Israel, has public transit on the Sabbath, as many there are Arab. Furthermore, the Chief Rabbinate has say over things that would traditionally fall under the old-old stuff of Jewish law, such dietary rules (ie, if you want your restaurant certified as kosher, you'd have to pass their rules to do so) rules of burial, etc.

5. There are therefore religious courts for handling disputes regarding those specific items, however

6. Regarding all secularized matters of life, including the basic governing of the state, that's all secular...that being said, you could always get a George W. Bush type as Prime Minister who decides that he or she really, really wants to emphasize the religiosity of the nation...but again, the actual electing and governing is secular, in theory and (mostly) law, anyway.

7. Aside from those minor issues of diet, burial, and other Old Testament remnants that the Orthodox Rabbinate really cares about, probably the two other areas where the religion would overlap would be marriage and education. As I understand it, there's something of a compromise between the secular government and the religious Jewish groups in Israel in terms of education, and that there's some overlap...the secular Ministry of Education handles matters, but there's again some influence from religious institutions (not, I suppose, unlike in England or parts of America, where if you send your kid away to a school in a certain part of the country, and it's religiously-funded or backed in part or on the whole, you're going to get some religion taught to you--that being said, there's still a common secular core that's to be taught regardless.)

Probably the most controversial area is gender and marriage. Intermarriage along religious grounds is at the very least problematic and possibly unrecognized/disallowed within the state itself (I'm unsure) BUT if you enter into an inter-faith marriage abroad and move to Israel, you're allowed to keep it. So, in a way, it's somewhat like what some would envision for gay marriage--your state may not allow it, but you can go to another state, get married, and have those rights retained in your home state, but you couldn't get married in that state. On the subject, gay marriage isn't allowed in Israel, and the age of consent for marriage is 17. Gender roles are...a long and complicated story. ;)

8. Finally, on the subject of religiously-recognized groups, there are at least five--Jews, Christians and Muslims (obviously), Druze, and Bahai. Other groups are recognized and allowed (like Buddhists) but those are the major ones. Each of those sects have their own religious ordinances to a certain extent over things such as marriage; however, to an extent, all of that is subject to the secular rule of the state.

There is no written constitution, but instead, the laws that exist at the present and a set of "Basic Laws" that govern how things work:

For starters, the Judiciary is independent of the Executive and Legislative branches, which both check one another. This is in part because of the aforementioned role religion plays in the religion-specific courts.

And section 1 of that Basic Law, which has been modified over the years, is as follows:

"Section 1: The purpose of this Basic Law is to protect human dignity and liberty, in order to establish in a Basic Law tile values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state."

From Wikipedia.

Without making this any longer, that Basic Law, which starts with that First Section, is the closest analogue to a "constitution" Israel would have, as those laws--really more declarations--are supposed to act as guiding principles that aren't to be breached or tread upon by a subsequent law unless the Basic Law is modified.

So, tl;dr:

1. They have laws respecting all citizens secularly BUT
2. Jews get preferential treatment on things like immigration AND
3. There is some religious influence in the Judiciary BUT
4. That's separated from the wholly-secular Exec. and Leg., which
5. Essentially ARE the acting government of Israel, while
6. There are multiple state-recognized religions, and
7. Obviously Judaism is the one with the most official and unofficial clout AND
8. That impacts things such as the Sabbath and what gets deemed kosher BUT
9. In MOST cases that doesn't conflict with/is reconciled with secular laws AND
10. Above all, Israel is intended to be a "Jewish and democratic state," wherein the democratic part is mostly secular but the cultural flavor of the nation is intended to be and remain Jewish.

...Hence why the 20% Arab minority in the country might feel disenfranchised (well, one of many reasons, but this is as long as this post shall go.) ;)
Putin33 (111 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
Dear trolls,

First Obi

"Please read next time."

I did read. The very first thing you talked about was the existence of Muslims, Jews, native Americans all living in America. In short, religious minorities being excluded. You can't invoke the founding fathers and invoke their beliefs and feelings for why you oppose US calling itself Christian. You were specifically talking about where that leaves religious minorities. Now you claim you were simply making a factual statement about the founders supposedly being deistic or atheistic. Except the writer of the US constitution was devout and very public Christian, so that doesn't wash either.

And I do love how you apologize for Israeli conquests which were far more brutal than the Crimean annexation but Putin is a "thug". Your hypocrisy is unending.

"or admit to being categorically wrong."

And where are you "compromising" with your view that Putin is the devil incarnate and all blame lies with Russia? Where are you compromising with your constant blaming of the Palestinians and Arabs for the Israel-Palestine conflict?

Just stop, Obi. Your double standards are exceedingly annoying.

"The point is that while I was trying to get a decent discussion so I could better pick a side, you insisted on making ridiculous claims, making discussion with you impossible, while all I wanted to do is assess the situation."

You're full of it. You're constantly making polemics against various leaders, particularly Obama. The notion that you're somehow an objective observer just looking for the truth is total horse manure. You waited for 4 months to troll me on Ukraine, you aren't interested in getting an impartial assessment of the situation. I did not think Crimea would be annexed, so what? I made one incorrect prediction and you've been celebrating about it for 4 months. But you're not a troll and you're interested in having "discussions", right? Get real.

"ou are absolutely wrong and refused to have a normal discussion "

I had plenty of "normal discussions". The comment about annexation was made in passing, and you're trying to milk it for all it's worth. It's pathetic really.
Putin33 (111 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
"but at least I'm quicker to admit when I've done so..."

What a crock.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
"Where are you compromising with your constant blaming of the Palestinians and Arabs for the Israel-Palestine conflict?"

I direct you to:

" Israel's done some terrible things human rights-wise, and I blame their sitting far-Right government and far-Right settlers for that, but I very much see that as a case of the extremes pushing the moderates...a minority (or at least nearly an even split) giving a bad name to the others, and that, in their (partial) defense, they're surrounded by Hamas, Hezbollah, and now this new threat rising in Syria and Iraq...

Israel DOES overreact, it's wrong, but as I've said repeatedly on this forum, I think that sometimes a state has to resort to political measures that aren't necessarily on the moral up and up--it's nasty and terrible and wrong, but that's humanity (and politics) for you. I think Israel will look back on those violations with shame, but I also think Israel is capable of change, and that the younger generation largely shares the vision of the Israeli Left, for a more open and secularized Jewish homeland, and so while Hamas and Hezbollah are permanent scourges that must be destroyed, Israel, at least, has the capacity, still, to be changed and rescued."

^That's my compromising and saying, yes, while I DO side with Israel in this conflict, they have their own share of blame and human rights violations on their hands. I said that right above, Putin, I ask again...

Do you read?

Or do you merely read selectively?
Putin33 (111 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
But Obi isn't making epic long rants about the Israeli legal system is awful because of it's admitted prejudice against non-Jews. Of course not. America is held to one standard and Israel to another, naturally.
Putin33 (111 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
It's all a big operation of excuse making for Israeli conduct. Well Israel does this, but it's all excused by the Big Bads of Hezbollah and Hamas. When it comes to who is responsible for the Arab-Israeli conflict, it's always the Arabs to you.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
"Now you claim you were simply making a factual statement about the founders supposedly being deistic or atheistic. Except the writer of the US constitution was devout and very public Christian, so that doesn't wash either."

I mentioned SPECIFIC founders here, Putin--

Jefferson, Paine, and Franklin, three whom all here would back as deistic and not Christian.

Also, on Madison, again from the (of course) ever-reliable Wikipedia:

"Although educated by Presbyterian clergymen, young Madison was an avid reader of English deist tracts.[15] Madison as an adult paid little attention to religious matters. Hutson says that historians searching through Madison's voluminous writings discover that after he left college, "there is no trace, no clue as to his personal religious convictions."[16] However, some scholars say he leaned toward deism.[17][18]"

Tell me how that's = very public Christian?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
"Well Israel does this, but it's all excused by the Big Bads of Hezbollah and Hamas. When it comes to who is responsible for the Arab-Israeli conflict, it's always the Arabs to you."

1. NOT "the Arabs," specific groups--Hamas and Hezbollah, and yeah, I'll blame them and blame them openly...are you going to defend them? I'd love to see you try, another feather in your cap.

2. I just got done talking about Israeli human rights violations...how does that square with my always blaming Arabs?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
And yeah, they ARE Big Bads, Hezbollah and Hamas.

I know you, a defender of Russia, China, and North Korea might not see it that way...

But I feel safe in saying just about every other person here, regardless of any other political affiliation, will agree Hamas and Hezbollah are the scum of the Earth.
bo_sox48 (5202 D Mod (G))
24 Jun 14 UTC
What the fuck's it matter who is responsible? The responsible party rarely pays for the conflicts they create - see World War I, Vietnam, Persian Gulf. What matters is that both sides of the argument are clearly militant and both sides of the argument are going to incredible lengths to talk over the top of moderates, i.e. both sides are using propaganda in their favor. If you care about the conflict's resolution, you won't put the blame on either side; rather, you'll acknowledge that both sides need to seriously change their ways and compromise with each other if it's ever going to actually end.
Putin33 (111 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
"Tell me how that's = very public Christian?"

Is the sum total of your effort in learning about anything clicking on wikipedia?

"I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way." - Letter of Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773), in 1 James Madison, The Papers of James Madison 66 (William T. Hutchinson ed., Illinois: University of Chicago Press 1962).

Furthermore he wrote the Virginia state constitution which made explicit its Christian orientation and passed a law establishing a publicly supported Bible Society for the mass distribution of the bible.

Debates and Proceedings in the Congress of the United States 1325, 12th Cong., 2nd Sess. (Washington: Gales & Seaton 1853) ("An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia. Be it enacted, &c., That the duties arising and due to the United States upon certain stereotype plates, imported during the last year into the port of Philadelphia, on board the ship Brilliant, by the Bible Society of Philadelphia, for the purpose of printing editions of the Holy Bible, be and the same are hereby remitted, on behalf of the United States, to the said society: and any bond or security given for the securing of the payment of the said duties shall be cancelled. Approved February 2, 1813."

Your comments about other founders are also gross exaggerations. The fact is that they were virtually all dissenters in the Protestant tradition (opposed to the Anglican church), but they were devout in their religious beliefs.

". NOT "the Arabs," specific groups--Hamas and Hezbollah, and yeah, I'll blame them and blame them openly...are you going to defend them? I'd love to see you try, another feather in your cap."

You also blame the *Arabs* for the 1947-1948 war, which has nothing to do with the usual excuses of Hamas and Hizballah. Every point of controversy with Israel is blamed on the Arabs regardless of what political form they take. This is your model of not being biased.

"how does that square with my always blaming Arabs?"

Because you uniquely give Israel wide latitude on this question as you even admitted, excusing it based on the threats they face. When other countries who you love to bring up as being evil incarnate have much greater threats, such excuses do not wash with you. Israel is held to a much lower standard.

"I know you, a defender of Russia, China, and North Korea might not see it that way..."

And you make no effort whatsoever to understand the security threats of *any country whatsoever* except Israel when it comes to human rights. Sad, pathetic, hypocrisy.

"will agree Hamas and Hezbollah are the scum of the Earth."

No most countries do not recognize Hizballah as 'scum of the earth'. You as usual conflate the opinion of a handful of western countries with the entire world.

And calling these groups scum of the earth while supporting opposing the opponents of Islamic terrorism in Libya and Syria is really rich.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
@bo_sox:

"What the fuck's it matter who is responsible?"

Because we're talking about arguably the single most history (and blood)-soaked area in the entire world, bar non, and by a LOT.

At this point, rational or no (and you have a fair point, in a perfect world, there would be less need to emphasize blame) it doesn't matter WHAT sect you back...

If you're involved in this at all, it MATTERS. The Middle East, again, maybe more than anywhere else in the world, is a family, sect and ultimately personal affair.

I actually know a family from Lebanon that was displaced by the 2006 war...

And they blame Hezbollah for that more than Israel, interestingly, but the point is, it becomes a family thing, so it becomes a blame thing...I have those friends involved, I had family members send weapons to Israel when they were fighting for independence, I won't have kids and likely won't leave any great mark on this world...

The two things of me I can hope to see live on after I die are Western Literature (headed by Shakespeare, of course) and the Jewish people...

There are days I love being a Jew, bo_sox, days I hate it, days it really doesn't seem that important, days it seems very important--

But damn it if I don't want to see the few Jews left in the world SURVIVE...

Again, one side of the family sent weapons to fight for independence, and my grandfather on the other side shelled Munich during WWII.

The Jewish people made it back after 2,000 years, the impossible dream...

And while I therefore DO empathize greatly with the Palestinians (particularly those in the West Bank who are subject to horrific far-right Jewish settlers who are a disgrace to their people) and DO want to see them get a state, because I understand what it must be like to be without a home state...

When someone specifically attacks MY people,
The home of my people,
The place we waited 2,000 years for...
The people who suffered and died to stay Jewish in places and times I'm lucky enough not to have to have experienced,
The people who are, again, my people...

When someone attacks THEM, they attack me.
When they kill Jewish kids, they may as well attack me.
When they blatantly SAY they want to kill all Jews, they attack me.
When they say Jews are demons and incite hatred against us, they attack me.

Because in their eyes, every Jew they kill may as well be me.

So it matters, and rationally or not, it matters to me greatly.

Depending on how you count, there's somewhere between 12 and 20 million Jews left in a world of over 7 billion. That's not a lot.

So when groups attack and intend to destroy the Jewish state, the place that's home to half that group?

I blame them...and I CARE who gets the blame...

The Israeli national anthem sings about "the hope of 2,000 years."

I hope the Jews will live to see another 2,000...it's amazing we survived the last 2,000...

So when someone threatens that, you better bet I'm going to hold them responsible--and want to see their ass held to the fire.

Let the Palestinians have their state.

Let the Israeli Right crumble and apologize for their crimes.

But make no mistake--I want Hamas and Hezbollah crushed and brought to heel...

You're right in that it'd be better if we could forget responsibility...

But you're wrong in thinking it doesn't matter.

That's the tragedy of so many Shakespeare plays--in a perfect world, you could extricate yourself from that, but in a HUMAN way...it matters who killed who.

It has to matter--that IS part of being human, even if it's a negative part.

The same way that it matters to me who would've killed me and those like me the last 2,000 years, who said they'd exterminate us or "push us into the sea," it matters.

And in the positive way--the people who kept going to fight against those that would exterminate us, who fought in Munich with my grandfather or fought the Hezbollah forces who bombed near my Lebanese friend or fought with the weapons my great-grandmother sent to fight for independence...

That courage and resilience matters to me...for the bad AND good...

Who's responsible for what MATTERS.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
I'll get back to Madison and the Founders in a minute, first--

"You also blame the *Arabs* for the 1947-1948 war, which has nothing to do with the usual excuses of Hamas and Hizballah."

I'm not saying it did!

And...yes...they were the opposing forces in that war...who would you like me to blame? The Israelis were happy with a two-state solution, Egypt said they'd "push the Jews into the sea," and we had ourselves a war.

When one side is content not to fight, and the other side incites a conflict and says they'll destroy all of the opposing side, whom would you have me blame in that conflict? Not all Arabs, but the ones involved, who made that declaration and who didn't settle for the two-state solution that would've saved 70 years of bloodshed?

Yes. I blame that side.

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74 replies
Birchford (167 D)
25 Jun 14 UTC
Parameter 'fromTerrID' set to invalid value '32'
Hello, has anyone encountered this error before, and if so do you have a fix for it? Thanks for your help.
13 replies
Open
dr. octagonapus (210 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
Commenting on ongoing gunboat games
I realise of course that you are not allowed to circumvent the no talking rule, like press via email or pm or f2f talking etc. but why is discussing the board in general disallowed? I get that I should not say who I am in the game but if someone is to talk about the board unbiased and without revealing who they are would this be acceptable?
23 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 D X)
09 Jun 14 UTC
Two team members per country game?
Would anyone be interested in creating a game, that each of the 7 clasic countries were comprised of two team members consulting together. I understand that only one can actually be listed in the game itself, but maybe create a side pot for the second team members that would pay out equally at end of game
236 replies
Open
KingCyrus (511 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
Boys State
Anyone familiar with this program?
5 replies
Open
Buzzle (1531 D)
23 Jun 14 UTC
multi-players
What if you have strong suspicions that someone is multi-playing in a game? Who do you contact to check into it?
38 replies
Open
fulhamish (4134 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
US constitution
I readily admit to starting from a low base on this one, but.....
23 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 D X)
24 Jun 14 UTC
Jihadists in Syria
Right now David Cameron is going on about the "threat" from Jihadists leaving the UK to go fight in Iraq and Syria.
Am I missing something? Why are Jihadists fighting in Syria a threat here? To me, it seems no more different than Orwell fighting in Spain.
28 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
24 Jun 14 UTC
Putin on Putin: An Open Invitation to Putin33 on the Russia/Ukraine/Syria Crisis
Welcome BACK, Putin33...my oh my, how the world of international politics has exploded since you last graced us with your presence...are you ready to decry your namesake for the scourge of the world that he is? Most assuredly not, but let this be an open letter and open invitation for you to give YOUR take on the whole of the crisis--and your namesake in particular--as so many have been wondering if you'd capitulate to common sense and call him out for the thug Big Bad Vlad is.
26 replies
Open
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