Yeah, i did describe it as slave labour - , but extrapolating from a 'free market' prespective (and the idea of having them pay for the cost of their own incarceration probably sells really well in certain political arenas)There remains this unfair competition angle...

{If you were to offer them a choice between owing society the cost of incarceration (huge debt burdens) and working for minimum wage (to cover some of those costs) i'm sure many would choose to work... }

I believe that those who outright reject imprisonment as a net positive in society would find the basics of the prison system abhorrent, with slave labour on top being a minor additional violation of rights...

It's all a matter of perspective.

They work for the food, water, electricity, clean clothes, and roof over their heads. The scum in prison showed contempt for society so society should show contempt for them.

@Draug, what about those people who were only saw contempt shown them by society, and thus acting the only way they knew?

i've got a goto analogy, about a Lion eating a Zebra, if it happens in the wild then nobody minds, that is just nature; if it happens in a zoo then everyone blames the zookeeper for putting them in the one pen.

You can't *just* blame individuals, when society contrives to place them into inescapable traps.

And regarding your demeaning attitude toward human rights, and what that says about you as a person. It is no surprise that if you tell someone they are less than human that they act against your 'society'.

At least we've found a way to make American workers economically competitive with Chinese and Indian workers.

Draugnar: Prisoners are humans and have rights just like any other human. With the insane percentage of prisoners in the U. S. 'prison industrial complex' to the U. S. population as a whole, huge numbers of prisoners are not scum at all and are guilty (if they are even guilty at all) of incredibly minor infractions.

Tolstoy: I think I like your sarcasm.

Prisoners in the United States cost more per person than students in public schools do. We treat them way too well. The only problem is that too many people go to prison for no real reason.

The overwhelming majority of prisoners *will* be let back on the streets. The "contempt" for prisoners, that "lock em up and throw away the key" mentality is stupid. (Sorry Draug...) Our prisons as currently formulated are training grounds to create better criminals, meaning that the prison systems, in effect, do more harm to society than they do good, as they area revolving door - they take in new prisoners while letting out the old - only the old prisoners are now angry (right or wrong) and have received little to no counseling on how to re-integrate in to society, they will have little to no job prospects because of their record, and therefore, even if they manage to stay out, will often become some sort of burden on society - and this is regardless of the crime. Lot's of people sitting in jail for petty drug crimes, failure to pay child support, drunk driving, etc...i.e. not everyone is scum of the earth...and yet they are all lumped together in societies mind.

An alien landing on earth to observe our prison system would be puzzled, for sure, as to why we wish to incarcerate non-dangerous individuals, hold them, and then return them to society in a worse condition than they were abducted. (Of course, the aliens would also want to anally probe them....until they saw what happened in prison...)

As for the cost of housing prisoners...I call complete *bullshit* on the idea that it costs more to house a prisoner than send a kid to school. A quick google search on "prisoner to guard ratio" will show you anything from 5-1 to 55-1 ration -- the truth is probably somewhere in between (I didnt' look extensively), but unless these guards are millionaires, and unless the prisoners are somehow eating more than basic glop (which I doubt), this common assertion can not be true, once a prison building is bought an paid for....but it's a great statement to rile people up without them knowing what you are talking about.

Anyway - the prison systems...and societies view of prisons/prisoners...is a *travesty*.

Shoot... I thought that was a great troll, but I only caught a few fish with it. Damn!

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1665387/infographic-of-the-day-what-s-more-expensive-prison-or-princeton

There's your simple Google search.

Nice infographic bosox. Still, I don't think the cost to house an inmate would be as high if we didn't have so damn many. I don't have any numbers, but I doubt there's much in the way of economies of scale when you've got prisoners tripling up in cells and in makeshift cell blocks inside gymnasiums. For as much money as we spend locking up nonviolent offenders, we could be spending it on real rehabilitation to avoid recidivism.

One job that I'd love to have, even for a short time, is prison librarian. I think helping out with legal research that actually makes a difference in a person's life would be very fulfilling.

rehabilitation? I'm sure there are tonnes of community based programs which would serve to help people make amends toward society without serving a prison sentence.

Some sort of reconciliation process, you know like having the guy who stole your car clean your garden for six months...

@2WL ... if we spent all the moneys that page talks about on rehabilitation, it would be well worth it. Why? Rehabilitation (as I'm sure you know; this is for others) makes people productive in society again. If you can turn a person out of a criminal lifestyle - which they typically fall back to again after release in today's world - then it is well worth the equivalent price of, say, college tuition. I don't know how that's not a universal desire among political parties, especially at how much we spend now.

@ora ... I can't tell if you're joking or not, so I'll approach it as if you aren't. I'm not sure where you live (I assume Europe?), but the typical rehabilitation center in the United States is aimed at one of the various abuse issues (ranging from alcohol to domestic to drugs, etc). There aren't rehab centers for street gang fighters and car thieves. They call that therapy, and speaking from experience within my family and my own experience with a number of counselors a few years back, they could do a lot more than they do now.

If you want to be sure prisoners help the country, I suggest changing the punishments into something that immediately works for society. Like giving them a tiny bit of national debt instead of letting them increase it a bit. Think outside the box. Sure, they need crimes to finance their debts, but that means less taxes for us, instead of more! Other than that, all criminal stuff will be more expensive, since a low-life gangster down the ladder in jail for a while doesn't hurt the mob but if the gangster is in debt he can't make a profit for the big guys, unless they invest making the entire thing more expensive.

Disclaimer: it's midnight and I feel very weird.

Alternatively, force criminals to adopt polar bears. Then kick all criminals to Mexico and the polar bears are halfway to the south pole where they're safe.

@bo - i am thinking about reducing every possible prison sentence.

There are some cases of damage to the frontal lobe which prevents people from controling urges (violent or otherwise) and these should be treated as medical issues. But the vast majority of healthy brains when exposed to violence and fear in prison end up changing their 'normal' responce to stress. Non-violent offenders (like those who break into a home when they know it to be empty; or perhaps a majority of drug users, but not violent spouses) should be 'rehabilitated' in the community.

Bringing them face-to-face with their victims in the hope that understanding and empathy can benefit them. Getting them to contribute to their local community - in the hope that they can feel empowered and see themselves making a positive difference.

I actually do mean trying to avoid sending anyone to prison if it can possibly be avoided.

@Steephie: making someone a debt slave is the fastest way to disempower them - you want people to 'have some skin in the game' - having something to lose, somethig they value; giving them debt is just about the exact opposite of that.

And defaulting on a debt is pretty easy, unless you plan a huge enforcement system - where upon being found to have defaulted you punish them with even more debt! At that rate you will get rid of the entire national debt pretty soon!

My point orathaic! We make profit as taxpayers, criminals get punished and most people have more "skin in the game" :P Someone has to have the debts anyway, can't we just give the criminals who do life a couple of times or something like that do life once and get a bunch of debt? Would be a nice loophole to piss off the Chinese :)

Disclaimer: midnight again. Feeling funky again.

No, giving them debt is like forcing them out of the game - they can't get any skin in the game until they pay off the debt - or they can refuse to play and ignore the debt, they would then be forced to trade on a black market - earn money/income from alternative and unregulated 'informal' economy - which in the best case means not paying income tax.