' it's because there is a complete lack of responsibility in the black community which has become dependent on everyone else taking care of
them. '

That's called blaming the victim FYI, and it is pretty easy for a person in a priviledged position to do; Now i'm not saying that any of the problems you claim exist are not problens, but i am saying that the cause goes deeper. (like most things in life, there is usually on simple and clear answer and it is usually wrong - life resists simplicity)

You could look at things from a class perspective instead of a race perspective - i'm sure that the chances of ending up in prison are much higher if your parent's income is lower. So you can just 'blame' everything on poverty - and that view isn't wrong - but the fact that poorer people tend to be black isn't a coincdence either.

You can look at things from a feminist perspective and you'll see a sligthly different view of society - women tend to have lower incomes, on average, yet the massive majority of the US prison population is male - which just demonstrates a huge culutral component not directly related to poverty.

Again, life resists simple explainations.

Education is a really important part of the problem, and attitude toward learning is a massive factor in educational achievement - that is something which is pretty uard for schools to do anything about, it usually starts at home or in 'society'. Boys and girls tend to pick up different attituded towards learning, and the lack of male role models in primary/elementary school definitely hurts male achievement. Boys end up thinking the 'learning'/academics is for girls - and then being put in special placement or diagnoised with some 'condition' (which is usually that they don't act like all the good girls - and thus it is pretty accurate to say they have a 'condition', it'w called being a boy, being interested in guns and knives and other things which are banned in elementary - even in their creative writing) and this just serves to discourage them further.

There are a huge number of problems facing american society. But blaming the victim doesn't help. It's not the boys fault that his 'boy culture' likes explosions and video games; it's not the black kid's fault that prison sentences for blacks tend to be longer; it's not a woman's fault that employers are likely to offer a lower starting wage (and get away with it, but they're being good little capitalists)

It is alk an in-built part of the culture; which includes racism. I mean, even with the same rate of arrest and conviction, longer prison sentences push up the % of black inmates. That assumes no racism on the part of the police, but indicates institutional racism on the part of the judicial system.

You can't simply ignore race, class and gender. Discrimination is real, and blaming the victim is usually a simplification at best.

Here is your problem. You are viewing all blacks as the victim. What do we do with victims? We cater to them. There are plenty of black people out there who work high level jobs they are actually good at and are not poor. Why? Because they had a strong family unit and stayed in school rather than hang out on the street with their friends all day skipping school. You act as if blacks doing poorly in school is somehow everyone else's fault. The black community needs to take some personal responsibility. There will always be a few bigots out there on all sides of the conflict, but society as a whole today is not at all like you described. I know this because I live in it. I SEE it. If this racism is so prevalent and class discrimination so strong give me some examples of where this specifically effected a group outside of a single isolated incident. In fact give me an example of where whites specifically targeted blacks under some pretext of the law or in a business.

Being racist against white is just as racist as against black. Next!!

@ kramerkov, you're maing some huge leaps from the specific
( the killing of a young Australian student & athlete )
to the general
(criticism of US Govt / racial "theorising" / sketchy discussion of factors of social disadvantage / advantage / social criticism etc etc )

I think it's still too early in the "clean up / investigate / grieving "stage
to be able to say only that the killing is a tragic event, and multiple lives are hurt
as well as the one lost - and a young man with ambition and talent

Major, I completely get what you are saying. I am not talking about that though. I am simply pointing out all the factors that are contributing to the general problems of America. While that includes pointless racial tension that is only a small factor in an ocean of issues.

You are right, not all black people are suffering at the moment; so they are not all victims. But you are only blaming those who are worse off.

And saying the black community needs to taoe some responcibility?? Wtf, can you not just have society take responcibility? You know are cross-race effort to undo mistakes of the past.

And it is not just black people who are poor, there a white and latino families who are living in poverty in the US, they also suffer from worse outcomes in school and higher likelyhood of prison time.

And by the way, i offered several different perspectives, they are not all wrong, they are each a fragment of the 'truth' - you see only what your perspective lets you, and you seem to he stuck with just one. Try taking a step back from 'the society you know and live in' try looking at it thriugh someone else's eyes; maybe you will find there is a lot of variety.

"You are right, not all black people are suffering at the moment; so they are not all victims. But you are only blaming those who are worse off."

I wonder if you realize that there are WHITE people in the United States that are suffering right now. White kids that grew up with one or zero parents, who were not taught the value of education, who through their diminished socio-economic status got fucked by the lottery of life....i wonder if anyone cares about them?

Or are they supposed to walk in to the bank and withdraw their imaginary stash of white man dollars? Or maybe demand the next CEO position purely based upon their glorious whiteness?

The sheer idiocy of the lift is amazing...there is nothing special about being black...there is nothing holding you back as a black person in 2013 that isn't ALSO holding back individuals from ANY race or culture...not legally. And the same bigotry that *individually* holds someone back can be legally challenged, and it is ALSO the same "bigotry" that holds back uneducated white kids that speak ghetto language and can't read or write by their own choices in life...

"And by the way, i offered several different perspectives, they are not all wrong, they are each a fragment of the 'truth' - you see only what your perspective lets you, and you seem to he stuck with just one. Try taking a step back from 'the society you know and live in' try looking at it thriugh someone else's eyes; maybe you will find there is a lot of variety."
Is that a joke? You are sitting on your high pedestal composed of "fragments of truth" and telling me I am only seeing MY OPINION. Look in the mirror.

"And saying the black community needs to taoe some responcibility?? Wtf, can you not just have society take responcibility? You know are cross-race effort to undo mistakes of the past. "
Why can't society take responsibility? BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T MAKE THE PROBLEM.

You are pinning blame on a society that wasn't in existence at the time of true segregation and slavery. The future descendants are responsible for making a better future. Not correcting the past wrongs of someone else.

Krellin, excellent point.

Lol society didn't make the problem.

That's an interesting insight.

African Americans in the United States are poorer, less educated, more frequently incarcerated, and less represented at the upper levels of political and economic power than whites are. If you don't think society has any remaining racism or relics thereof, to what do you attribute these obvious disparities in social standing?

-Making a guest appearance for a short time-

It seems to me that America as a whole hasn't been having too much trouble and that recently it has gotten much worse. I would like it if we could identify some of the instigators. I don't plan to go just from my side here so if my vision is skewed feel free to correct me.

1. Resentment of the past. The reality of past enslavement and persistent discrimination is still considered reason to hate the race that did those things.
Opinion bit- It has been a while since racism has occurred en masse. There has been no govt. policy to discriminate since the CRM, and I don't see one in the future.

2. Economic standing. A person in poverty is know to blame someone who has it better for their predicament.
Opinion bit- Stereotypes seem to be the culprit here. Since whites are stereotyped as wealthy, specifically those of the Republican variety, they are to blame.

3. The media. Some networks make said stereotypes among other, more volatile ones.
Opinion bit- I feel that the only culprits in this re-invigoration of racial tension are those that are making an issue over it. In their attempt to get a good story they have made real stories. There has been so much fuss over racism that people are believing it and, unfortunately, acting on it. When Terrence what's-his-face says "So I guess its open season on black kids," not only is he completely wrong, he's stirring up trouble. How many kids heard that and said "I hate white people," for it? Fox News doesn't help anything when they go on and on about how such-and-such isn't a race crime, as (even if it isn't) in all reality it will end up being used to "display ignorance" or something to that effect.

Alright, I'll leave it at that (I started to feel a little ranty). All in all I feel that it's not the past actions or stereotyped economic standings of the "whites" that inspire the violence, though perhaps to the hate. What we need to be looking for is the spark, and I think I know that it is.
I have to go and my lack of mobile electronic device prohibits me from continuing outside of my dining room, so...

@ck
Location, if you ask me.
Sure there are still racists, but I don't think there are enough to cause such a gap in statistics.

@krellin - you said: 'i wonder if you realize that there are WHITE people
in the United States that are suffering right now.'

I wonder if you read my previous post where i mentioned those people.

@Adam - i don't know tha it has been getting worse lately; it is possible that you've been growing up and becoming more aware of the society around you - which happens to everyone. I may be wrong about your age, just basing this on some feeling i have from talking to you in the past...

@'society didn't make the problem' - society is just us, everyone together, not the state or current government/party.

If society didn't cause the problems, who did? Nobody? Are you saying it is a natural occurance? Perhaps there is something which naturally makes people poor and exploited...

@orathaic
Yeah, by "worse lately" I mean more the most recent occurrences including the shooting, the beating of a teen nearly to death, and the beating (to death) of an 88 year-old man who was sitting in his car waiting for someone.
I was wrong to say "much worse," as this sort of thing happens all the time though it is rarely reported.
My point happens to still stand that there is something standing in the way of real progress toward equality. Humans will always have these tendencies, but I think we have potential to get better. I don't think that accusations and stereotypes will do the trick.

As for my age, you're probably right. I'm quite young and I'll leave it at that for now, unless someone is interested. I am becoming more aware of society. I have to say that my previous outing on the forums was one of the most educational experiences in my life, fulfilling my goal of flushing out every argument and every viewpoint.

On topic now, I would like to say that the answer to "who caused the problem" is a minority that presents itself as the majority, as in most of world history. The question can be narrowed down to which of these minorities is the problem-causer.

@Adam, I like your perspective. You are very open minded and consider multiple points of view while not backing down from your own assertions.
@Orathaic, as for age, in relation to everything you've said, I don't think being young and new to the world is a bad thing. The singular source of this bigotry and hate comes from the older generation who can't let anything go and who use their children as vents for their own misgivings and frustrations. THAT is why racism persists at all!
You said yourself, society is the people and the people living now are more tolerant and racially fair than EVER before. The majority of Americans are NOT racists and the system is NOT skewed against blacks. You act like because the majority of blacks are stuck in lower class areas or end up being the majority in prisons that society did that to them. Bull shit. THE INDIVIDUAL IS RESPONSIBLE for every action they make. No one can force you to do anything and those in prison, of ALL racial groups, made their choices. Granted the occasional person is wrongfully convicted, but our system isn't perfect and never will be.
What ever happened to the ideology of Martin Luther King Jr? What ever happened to being the better man and CONSTRUCTIVELY working for the betterment of ALL men of ALL races? Stop with this crap about victimization and blame. If the system was completely against blacks, as you would claim, none of them would hold high standing. So why is it that so many DO hold high positions in businesses and our government? Why is it that so many blacks DO find success and become great? You know why, because they WORKED for it. They didn't ask for a handout and sure as hell didn't blame others for THEIR mistakes. All they asked for was a fair chance and they got it and took it for everything it was worth. In the United States you have the RIGHT to the PURSUIT of happiness. You are NOT GUARANTEED happiness. Pulling the race card only serves to make the situation worse and if you are so experienced in life you should know that.
@steephie, yes society today, the people today, are not responsible for what their grandparents and great grandparents did. They are not under any obligation to right someone else's wrongs. They ARE obligated to carry this nation forward in a constructive manner. ALL of them.

I'll admit that many blacks are stuck in poor areas and have a harder time getting the gears running on their careers so they CAN TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES. Many have difficulty providing for themselves because they started off without many options. THAT is WHY we have the government help programs, but yet again, those who DON"T really need them are abusing them while denying those who DO need them any access to them. If you want to blame someone blame all the people who live off of welfare checks, government handouts, and fraudulent disability claims. Blame the INCREASING LACK of motivation for working and contributing to society. And most of all blame the people responsible for continuing this gross misuse of funds which have gone COMPLETELY UNCHECKED. For a government that loves regulation they sure aren't doing a very good job ACTUALLY regulating.

'THE INDIVIDUAL IS RESPONSIBLE for every action they make'

I'm so glad to hear this, i'll be sure to inform nietzsche.

As is custom on WebDip forums, I will address the capital letters.
"THAT" - I'm not sure how much it is that we can't give up the "old ways" so to speak, but more we are ruminating the idea of the stereotypes to the point that we believe they are believed; a dangerous situation to be in.
"NOT (skewed...)" - For the most part. The problem presents itself when one of the few gets some power or does something stupid.
"THE INDIVIDUAL IS RESPONSIBLE" - Yes, though I would not understate the difficulty. Back in the day families used to work for generations to become comfortable, now we expect it and we expect it within our lifetime.
-Just noting that there are never just a few options.
"DON'T...DO" - Well the fact that people who don't need them use them is abuse in and of itself, resulting in declining service for those who "do".
"INCREASING LACK" - Agreed. I don't need to be old to be able to see the decline, history books alone tell me this (though I am cautious in textbooks). As for contributing to society, I don't think that should be the motive. That brings us into a whole different topic for a different forum.
"COMPLETELY UNCHECKED" - I don't know if you can say that. We have tried to reform, though it usually ends up being publicized as "the Republicans are trying to destroy (for example) Social Security." Some laws have been passed; I however cannot confirm their success or failure.

@Adam, well said. I am going to take a break for a while as I am starting to get too emotional about this issue. It just hits a nerve in me that I can't stand so I am starting to over exaggerate. I appreciate you reigning things back in.

I can sense that people are getting emotional about this subject so I would like to play a game instead.

It's called dipquality (TM) all rights reserved. We start by inviting 100 players to a meeting and ask them to turn up in red or blue socks. They are not told why.
Players who turn up in blue socks are given 3 SCs, players who turn up in red socks are given 1 SC. there are 1000 SCs in total so a number will remain neutral. the object of the game and movement is the same as diplomacy. Each phase takes 10 years and each player may gift their position to their children.

At the end of 100 years the remaining players and the offspring of the players who have been eliminated are asked how they would like to continue.

If you were one of the people either still playing or one of the offspring of a player eliminated how would you like the game to proceed?

Have not read this thread, but suspect at least one person has noticed my silence heretofore on the issue.

I would like to say that I am not ignoring this issue and I am considering it very closely. I'll post something when I've formed an opinion more solidly.

I trust the civility of this forum enough not to take this delay as a tactic but rather as a sincere expression of my reticence to comment without understanding the topic fully.

Until later.