"1. Despite all the wrongdoings of the IDF, Hamas is partially to blame for many of the deaths occuring, and is a bad thing for the two-state movement"

I don't think anyone has said anything to contrary. Hamas is a bad organization that has done some bad things. It was also the only one looking to change the status quo prior to this campaign, and is still the only one in this situation without choice or agency. You have to acknowledge who is committing the greater injustice here.

"2. This is a war, and in an extremely urban area too. Civilian casualties are not to be unexpected. Dirty tactics are not unexpected either, by *either* side. Look at Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, ANYWHERE. What is the most important metric is civilian deaths/combatant deaths, and we want that as low as possible. I would be interested to see how this compares to, say, the US invasion of Iraq. "

Key difference is those areas were full on wars. This is a very large military power bombing what is effectively an open air refugee camp. Civilians, by Israel's own design, have nowhere to run or seek shelter. Civilians are actively killed because of Israel's own efforts, not against Hamas military targets, but against civilian infrastructure. This isn't a matter of getting caught in the crossfire, civilians are actively targeted by Israel bombs and soldiers.

goldfinger, on the other hand, is AT LEAST being fair...

We obviously still disagree, as I think attacking Hamas is doing the right thing (we can agree that anti-Arab sentiments are wrong as well) but at least he's willing to admit that some of these civilian deaths Hamas touts are the fault of their own dirty tactics.

He's not just repeating the same defense of Hamas over and over and over despite their actions today and previously.

"1. Nice swipe at your Hamas-backing partner there..."

I couldn't give less of a shit about Putin. He's not my partner here. He only hurts discussion and gives people like you easy ammunition.

"2. Frankly, Chairman, you're saying the same things as before...I see no need to engage you in conversation when you engage in the SAME conversation, the SAME defenses of Hamas..

When Hamas has committed an action that broke another ceasefire, abducted a soldier, and destroyed peace talks.

I'll debate until I'm blue in the face, but NOT to a brick wall--

And frankly, after this latest incident, I feel there should be some shifting on your side, because you've backed these people time and again as people who can be part of a peace process, and we saw more evidence today that that's simply not the case. "

Not sure how I'm the brick wall when you've in the past repeatedly ended all discussion with the single point of "hamas must be removed" with absolutely no lee-way or potential to see difference in the discussion. I'm not the only one to accuse you of being a broken record. And it's pretty clear you've straight up ignored my posts in this thread once again, as I addressed exactly what you're saying here not but a page or two ago.

Link after link, yeah breitbart link.

"Hamas is a bad organization that has done some bad things. It was also the only one looking to change the status quo prior to this campaign, and is still the only one in this situation without choice or agency. You have to acknowledge who is committing the greater injustice here."

Nonsense, Abbas was looking to change things...PEACEFULLY.

And looking to change the status quo doesn't justify putting civilians in the line of fire, breaking ceasefires, and Hamas IS the greater force of injustice here.

Now, between Israel and Abbas/the West Bank, THERE you can have an argument...

But Hamas is a vicious terror organization that wants to kill all Jews, and does everything it can to do that, and has brought nothing but death to the region, destroying ceasefire after ceasefire and acting in anything BUT peace and doing everything it can to torpedo peace talks.

"Key difference is those areas were full on wars."

...I think we can call this a full-on war, Chairman. -_-

If the Gulf War counted, in terms of time and loss of life, this sure as hell counts.

"Civilians, by Israel's own design, have nowhere to run or seek shelter."

It's by HAMAS design--

By hiding weapons in UN areas,
By firing out of civilian areas,
By using human shields and admitting to doing so...

THEY have made the whole strip unsafe.

"Link after link, yeah breitbart link."

Says the man who quotes pro-Russian sites with impunity in that discussion...

You're not exactly one to cast stones in an argument about using biased sources.

Goldfinger isnt defending Hamas at all, genius. Hes spent the better part of his time making excuses for Israel, of course you think hes fair.

"Not sure how I'm the brick wall when you've in the past repeatedly ended all discussion with the single point of "hamas must be removed" with absolutely no lee-way or potential to see difference in the discussion. I'm not the only one to accuse you of being a broken record."

You likewise have the same broken record, immovable stance, that Hamas is in the right and that Israel is wholly in the wrong and that Hamas are freedom fighters and that they truly want peace and that Israel does not and so on and son on and so on...

You've been saying the same things over and over and over--

But as today's incident shows, you really don't have a leg to stand on in terms of that position anymore--you cannot defend Hamas as peaceful or as seeking peace anymore.

The credibility of that argument blew up with the bomber this morning.

obi what are your thoughts on this Pentagon report that echoes what I've been saying

http://news.yahoo.com/destroy-hamas-something-worse-pentagon-intel-chief-023718713.html

how about this new buffer zone recreated which specifically refutes your thoughts on Israel not wanting Gazan territory:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/israeli-buffer-zone-tightens-gaza-chokehold-20148183650108236.html

what about the massacre of civilians by the IDF. Is this Hamas doing too?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/01/who-is-behind-gaza-s-mass-execution.html#sthash.IRcDbIsO.uxfs
https://www.facebook.com/eran.efrati.9/posts/10204269146351996
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/israeli-soldier-admits-murdering-palestinian-civilians-was-a-pre-planned-act-of-revenge/

what do you have to say about Israel being the one to break most of the ceasefires for years. Why should Hamas trust someone who clearly has no regard for maintaining ceasefires?

http://i.imgur.com/CpLBSe4.png

"Goldfinger isnt defending Hamas at all, genius. Hes spent the better part of his time making excuses for Israel, of course you think hes fair."

He wasn't defending Hamas, he was being critical of Israel and how just Israel was (and as he said he views the action as unjust, that hardly seems like he's making excuses for them, but why be consistent with the quote right in front of you?)

Sorry that concept escapes you, continue......

"Nonsense, Abbas was looking to change things...PEACEFULLY."

That's what I said. Abbas is dictating for Hamas.

"It's by HAMAS design--

By hiding weapons in UN areas,
By firing out of civilian areas,
By using human shields and admitting to doing so...

THEY have made the whole strip unsafe. "

This is not true. Israel shelling is not contained to just where Hamas is firing from. Israel bombs everything. City center where they tell people to flee to, UN schools where no militants are located, etc.

Putin is a Hamas agent, and a traitor of the free world.

"obi what are your thoughts on this Pentagon report that echoes what I've been saying"

I already addressed the question of what could replace Hamas, and I disagree--

I think Abbas can fill that void and give a TRULY unified Palestinian front, one that pushes for peace and doesn't have a disgusting terrorist group destroying those efforts with incidents like this.

Get rid of Hamas...

Let Abbas take over in the Gaza Strip.

"You likewise have the same broken record, immovable stance, that Hamas is in the right and that Israel is wholly in the wrong and that Hamas are freedom fighters and that they truly want peace and that Israel does not and so on and son on and so on...

You've been saying the same things over and over and over--

But as today's incident shows, you really don't have a leg to stand on in terms of that position anymore--you cannot defend Hamas as peaceful or as seeking peace anymore.

The credibility of that argument blew up with the bomber this morning. "

The key difference is my position has evidence. You've only used conjecture and CAPSLOCK.

And it's hilarious you think today's ceasefire break is suddenly the one that decides it all. What about the continued military operations in Gaza by Israel during the ceasefire? What about the numerous previous ceasefires broken by Israel?

""obi what are your thoughts on this Pentagon report that echoes what I've been saying"

I already addressed the question of what could replace Hamas, and I disagree--

I think Abbas can fill that void and give a TRULY unified Palestinian front, one that pushes for peace and doesn't have a disgusting terrorist group destroying those efforts with incidents like this.

Get rid of Hamas...

Let Abbas take over in the Gaza Strip. "

Too bad his efforts were derailed by Israel at every move. If Israel won't work with Abbas, who will they work with ?

http://news.yahoo.com/abbas-swears-palestinian-unity-government-shunned-israel-105415671.html

"1. Despite all the wrongdoings of the IDF, Hamas is partially to blame for many of the deaths occuring, and is a bad thing for the two-state movement."

The fact that you are bothering to refer to the two-state solution as some kind of tangible possibility shows a great deal of naivete. And Hamas is about as responsible for the deaths of Palestinians in Gaza as the Jewish "terrorists" in the Warsaw Ghetto (who, ironically, also used underground tunnels to combat their enemies and smuggle in weapons and "hid" among the civilian population, forcing innocent SS troops to inadvertently kill innocent civilians the ZOB was "using as human shields") were responsible for the Holocaust.

" "It appears that President Abbas has formed an interim technocratic government that does not include ministers affiliated with Hamas," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in Washington.

"But we will continue to evaluate the composition and policies of the new government and calibrate our approach accordingly," Psaki said.

An Israeli official, speaking on condition of anonymity, released a statement after Psaki's comments, denouncing the unity cabinet as supported by Hamas, a group bent on Israel's destruction."

It's almost like Israel is lying through their teeth. Weird!

"This is not true. Israel shelling is not contained to just where Hamas is firing from. Israel bombs everything. City center where they tell people to flee to, UN schools where no militants are located, etc."

Hamas fires from civilian areas, they make the whole civilian area unsafe...

Hamas showed today how little it cares about civilian lives--

Ending a ceasefire designed for the civilians it's supposed to be protecting...an hour and a half in?

They don't care, Chairman. They. Do. Not. Care.

If multiple ceasefires for those civilians broken and putting them in harm's way time and again doesn't convince you that they don't care, then I won't convince you, hence why I say it's like arguing at a brick wall.

And again, at this point--I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, the defense of Hamas is finished, and if you disagree at this point--alright. But I think history will prove you wrong...the time for peace is over, and the time for trying to justify Hamas' actions is over--it's time to end this fight once and for all.

obi, you've barely addressed half my points. And when you do, you literally repeat the same thing word for word without refuting my premise

"THEY have made the whole strip unsafe."
"they make the whole civilian area unsafe..."

what kind of cognitive dissonance do you have to have to skirt around my points, selectively choose what you like, and respond with the same inane banter with any evidence, without any sort of supporting claims. "All of Gaza is unsafe because Hamas fires from it" is some ridiculous shit to say when we're talking about bombings from an army that can and has pinpointed its strikes down to individual cars in the street.

Hamas certainly doesn't care, but Israel plays into their hands every single time. Israel would come out much better in this situation if they responded to Hamas attacks proportionality and didn't carry out mass bombing campaigns wiping out civilian infrastructure.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israel-repeatedly-strikes-gaza-apartment-bloc-201471831824270159.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/deaths-as-israel-resumes-gaza-strikes-20147281452469626.html
http://news.yahoo.com/gaza-three-children-killed-playing-roof-203716384.html

but yeah, Israel is going to finish this fight once and for all. They just don't care how many innocent people they have to kill first.

And yeah, history has historically been very kind to oppressive apartheid regimes murdering innocent civilians. I mean, just ask South Africa how that turned out

Chairman, at this point I'm convinced Hamas could make a deal with you, break it three seconds later, knee you in the groin, promising to kill every member of your family and race while shouting that what they REALLY wanted was peace...

And you'd still believe them and still make excuses for them, even as you were wheezing on the floor.

You could come up with scenarios about Hamas kneeing people in the groin.

OR

You could answer his points - for example the point he made, supported by evidence, that Israel has broken far more truces than Hamas in recent years.

To the best of my knowledge, his articles are on events such as the shelling of a UN school and an disgraced Israeli soldier taking "revenge" on innocent civilians and the like...including (the height of biased "sources") a Facebook post.

For all his claims of "conjecture," I have, in this debate, used everything from Yahoo to the BBC to The Jerusalem Post to (I believe) The Washington Post (I could be wrong on that) and other sources as well...

ALL relating to the specific topic of this 72-hour humanitarian ceasefire being broken by Hamas when it claimed over and over it *wanted* this ceasefire for the suffering people of Gaza in the first place.

What possible shred of credibility is left to them when they claim to want that...and then break it... *90 minutes* after it began.

His evidence talks about other Israeli military actions and in some cases, yes, reprehensible actions, but NOT, from what I sifted through, evidence that Israel has "broken far more truces than Hamas in recent years."

Then you're not paying attention. Here it is again, posted twice today by Chairman, most recently about 2 hours ago:

@ Chairman Sheng Ji-Yang: "What do you have to say about Israel being the one to break most of the ceasefires for years. Why should Hamas trust someone who clearly has no regard for maintaining ceasefires?

http://i.imgur.com/CpLBSe4.png "

The data used to create that image/diagram is here:

bit.ly/vp-violations

And quiet frankly, Jamiet, even if I granted that, which I don't at all...

What would the relevancy be, when the argument is centered on what Hamas has done NOW--

That they called for this ceasefire, repeatedly, decried Israel not wanting one, decried the state of the Gazan people...

And then broke it 90 minutes in.

Either side could have broken a hundred past truces, and aside from the dick-waving contest that's become the "moral high ground" argument here, that wouldn't have any practical relevancy to the fact that one side, Hamas, requested, denounced the lack of, and then broke a humanitarian ceasefire 90 minutes after it began...

How can you trust such an organization, unless you're already pre-disposed to do so?

If you and I made a deal, Jamiet, that I would loan you my car for 72 hours, and then I not only snatched my car back 90 minutes later, but backed out over your cat on the way out of your driveway, what possible reason could you ever have for expecting me to keep my word again? How could you ever hope to deal with me?

THAT is the central point here--Hamas has proven that, unlike Abbas, it cannot be trusted to honor its agreements, at least not right now...there's absolutely no reason to believe that they would now.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

No, the point, which is the point Chairman was making if you'd been listening instead of just repeating yourself over and over, is that ISRAEL has proven it cannot be trusted to honour any ceasefire.

Yeah, I saw that, Jamiet...

Really? imgur, imgur and Facebook are the sources we're using now?

"bit.ly/vp-violations"

^And whatever the hell that is, my computer can't access or is blocking it.

What's more...yeah...that diagram looks academic and legit.

"Who Dunnit?"
"CAN YOU TELL WHICH ONE?"

^Truly, the height of academic, objective language there!

"is that ISRAEL has proven it cannot be trusted to honour any ceasefire."

They just did...

And they've honored other ceasefires in this same conflict...

The point is that you claimed, in your first post, "Israel has abided by the ceasefires, Hamas has not." This is simply wrong.

The link "bit.ly/vp-violations" works fine on my computer. It links to this dataset:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MJb3QIqfRjXAhEXQfpl0HM-3arN1pI_xn6PscNhG52c/edit#gid=1450129886