It's not the same argument.

The majority of guns are not used in an illegal manner.
The majority of women who go out dressed sexily tonight will not be raped.

However:

Every gun death involves a gun.
Every rape does not involve sexy clothing.

Indeed, I don't ever

Ack, cut the last sentence. Stupid lack of an edit button....

Also: Don't put words in my mouth. I would never say something so asinine as ".....If we could just save one life....."

And what the fuck is a proactive dress?

Every violent death does not involve a gun

Every rape of a scantily clad woman involves a scantily clad woman.

-----

YES or NO -- You believe that sometimes the dress of a woman *may* contribute to teh actions of a rapist (with whom we place full responsibility for his actions...and yet also admit that he may be motivated by factors in his environment)?

YES or NO: No gun in and of itself ever motivated someone to kill another human being, but instead it is largely because of outside factors that he/she is influenced to kill someone?

It's not a simple as YES or NO.

I believe that if a rapist sees two women he could potentially rape, he is perhaps more likely to target the one who is dressed more sexily. However, I think that if neither woman is sexily dressed, he will still rape someone. So the sexy dress does not actually increase the *incidence* of rape.

"So the sexy dress does not actually increase the *incidence* of rape. "

You have no proof of this. You have no proof to say that a rapist has never decided to commit rape "on the spot" due to a sexily clad woman....we are not confining our argument solely to the man who sets out in a dark mask and stalks the street for a victim. This could also apply to the drunken asshole at a frat party who goes after the "apparently loose and easy chick" gets her drunk and takes advantage of her because he just has to have a piece of that ass...but for whom the bugly chick across the way in here practical clothes and the real fuck me eyes can't get anyone's attention...

Please do not deny this doesn't occur every weekend on college campuses..

You have also failed to point out where a gun, in and of itself, was the soul motivator for a person to kill someone.

It's not the dress but the rapist taking advantage of the situation women wear those clothes.

Rape is about power, Krellin. Power and opportunity. In your frat party anecdote, surely the main factor is that the girl is *drunk* and therefore less able to defend herself, rather than what she is wearing?

You might also want to take a look at this legal research, which finds that provocative dress does not even necessarily make a woman more likely to be targeted:

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1109&context=djglp

"Rape is about power, Krellin. "

And murder with a gun has nothing to do with power. It's just someone mindlessly being controlled by a gun with no outside influences over their behavior...

And very glad to see that you so fully and completely agree that the dress of a woman in absolutely *no* way, shape or form should be a consideration when trying to determine the actions of a rapist. You have walked this rape path quite well.

Now, can you also agree that no single fire arm can ever be held responsible for persuading an individual to kill another? And further, can you agree that it is just as possible that, in the absence of a firearm, violent death occurs via: Knife, baseball bat, pots and pans, fists, motor vehicle (yes, people intentionally run people over), poison, dragging behind a vehicle with a rope, home made bombs, arson (with subdued victims inside target building)....

Can't read a 28 page article right now...did read the conclusion...and I will suggest the that author never worked in an office with young, attractive women and horny guys, for whom sexual harassment (comments about, to one another, or at said women) were simply the acting out of horny young guys that weren't raised properly by their mothers.

I'm not saying some sexual harassment isn't about power...but to suggest all sexual harassment is about power is to de-humanize the very basic instinct of male and female animals to be attracted and act out towards one another.

The notion of one sex of a species putting on vibrant visual displays to provoke action by the opposite sex, and compete with others of the same sex for a mate is prevelant in accross the animal kingdom...but you will now suggest that such behavior does not exist in the humans whom you believe evolved right along with the rest of the animal kingdmom?

@ Krellin: "Now, can you also agree that no single fire arm can ever be held responsible for persuading an individual to kill another? And further, can you agree that it is just as possible that, in the absence of a firearm, violent death occurs via: Knife, baseball bat, pots and pans, fists, motor vehicle (yes, people intentionally run people over), poison, dragging behind a vehicle with a rope, home made bombs, arson (with subdued victims inside target building)...."

Of course it is possible for both violence, and violent death to occur without guns. Yes. I am happy to agree that this is the case.

I would not argue that guns cause violence. I do not believe I have ever done so. If I did, I retract it now. However, I would argue that in a violent situation, the presence of a gun would, I think, make a fatality more likely. It is *possible* to kill someone with a saucepan, yes, but it is much *easier* to kill them with a gun. If you are attacked by someone with a gun I think your chances of survival are lower than if they come at you with a cooking pot, or their fists. Can you agree?

@ Krellin: "Can't read a 28 page article right now...did read the conclusion...and I will suggest the that author never worked in an office with young, attractive women and horny guys..."

When you do make time to read the article properly, you will find that the author didn't just pluck the conclusion out of thin air. It isn't a baseless opinion, it is a conclusion based on a thorough study of real sexual harassment cases.

I agree guns make violent death of another much more efficient.

Can you agree that possessing a gun makes it much easier to protect myself than, say, waving a sauce pan at an intruder?

Further..."...a violent situation..." Well this is an interesting little tidbit, isn't it? So a situation causes the violence, and the gun perhaps expedites the process of violence. I think that is an accurate description of you assertion.

So I wonder then…do you agree that rape is most often a situational occurrence? In other words, it is most often someone that is known that commits a rape, as opposed to the creepy stalker. As such, do you believe in the limitation or removal of available circumstances under which rape frequently occurs? Such as over-consumption of alcohol? I think I could make the argument that alcohol is the firearm of rape…wanna dance that dance and see if I can make you dip?

"When you do make time to read the article properly, you will find that the author didn't just pluck the conclusion out of thin air. It isn't a baseless opinion, it is a conclusion based on a thorough study of real sexual harassment cases."

And my conclusion is based upon real life observation of "sexual harassment", which occurs all the time and goes unreported, most often because it is normal human behavior.

@ Krellin: "Do you agree that rape is most often a situational occurrence? In other words, it is most often someone that is known that commits a rape, as opposed to the creepy stalker."

I'm not sure I agree with that claim. I know three women who have been raped by complete strangers, two who were the victim of an attempted rape by a stranger but managed to escape or fight him off, and only one who was raped by someone she knew. Do you have any reliable evidence to support your claim?

I'll see what I can find....to be continued...

Ok.

Most rape is acquaintance rape - krellin is right there.

Evidence please Mendax?

Mendax, who are you and what have you done with Mendax?

krellin, thanks for backing my point.

Blaming inanimate objects for crime is asinine.

http://www.911rape.org/campus-rape/what-students-need-to-know/stranger-rape-vs-acquaintance-rape

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

http://www.sarsonline.org/resources-stats/reports-laws-statics

The majority of rape is committed by someone known to the victim

"Blaming inanimate objects for crime is asinine."

Should we not blame anti-personnel land-mines for the 15,000 injuries or deaths which occur worldwide via landmines? Should not focus attention on Napalm for the effects of Agent Orange? After all, it's just an inanimate object right, the type of weapon is a non-issue.

Krellin - you're comparing a dress to a gun. In what way can a dress rape somebody?

@ Krellin: "The majority of rape is committed by someone known to the victim"

Ok, given the evidence in the links you've presented, it looks like about two thirds of rape victims know their attacker, so yes, I concede that you are correct on that. It surprises me that's the case, but I guess my own experience just happens to differ. I'd have guessed it was more 50/50 but my assumption was wrong, clearly.

Having cleared that up (and thanks for taking the time to do so) I'll go back to your original post and attempt to address the questions to me which it contained:

@ Krellin: "So a situation causes the violence"

I'm not sure what you mean by that, actually. A situation causes the violence? All I did was use the term "violent situation". All kinds of things might cause violence to occur, and when the violence is occurring, that's a violent situation. Once you're IN that violent situation, if someone has a gun, rather than a saucepan, a fatality is more likely. Do you not agree with that? Where are you going with this "a situation causes the violence" thing? I don't quite follow your logic.

"In other words, it is most often someone that is known that commits a rape, as opposed to the creepy stalker. As such, do you believe in the limitation or removal of available circumstances under which rape frequently occurs? Such as over-consumption of alcohol?"

Again I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Surely if a woman is drunk, she's less likely to be able to fend off a rapist, whether she was acquainted with him beforehand, or not. So what does the alcohol have to do with whether or not they know each other?