"I love how no one can separate America from the idea of our armies going places and killing the sh*t out of everything there." - maybe that is because these are the american things they see over here.

That and macdonalds...

"And honestly I don't give a shit about Israel. I don't understand why we should be involved." - the jewish americans influence on your government policy? along with the Cuban exiles influence in florida which encourages the trade embargo to continue, right? Clearly some Jews in America didn't go to Israel because they DON'T support the occupation and persecution of Israeli lands... i don't know how the American administration maeks their decisions.

I have an idea about the reason why USA support Israel. First jewish americans lobbying (well-known theory). But I have an other theory : As most americans are protestants church-goer, and as most of that religious savants are analysing the news to find some proof that Jesus will arrived soon (See how in the USA people treat about religion like if it was science) they will find normal that Israel is gathering in Palestine. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I was born in a mormon family, so at least that is what they believe. I don't know if the other religious groups believe the same way, I guess it is written in the bible or something. I should do a research about it.

i hope that a religious belief in the second coming doesn't have that influence on American foreign policy.

Btw I have watch a show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT2FvhDqSy8&feature=related) where the man said that the raise of European Union as be predict in the bible (dream of Daniel) and that when christ will come back on earth the EU will go at war against Jesus!! O_O Sometimes I wonder if USA will attack us because of biblical predictions.

I think the religious organisations try to keep pressure on the believers with that kind of stuff.

As a foreigner I see USA as a land full of sects and dangerous organisations manipulating people.

wow, Chamois i think you're views are as extreme and weird as some of the Americans posting here.

Orathaic, "as extreme and weird as some of the Americans posting here. "

What weird things have Americans posted here? I don't mean things you disagree with, but what has been 'weird'?

i mean that some ideas about what is going on in the world are weird and different to me because i haven't expierenced them before.

and yes i do htink the idea that the US will go to war with the EU because of Jesus - is weird/unusual and extreme.

OBservation - Most Americans that see us involved in external wars - and by most Americans I mean people on the street, at work, everyday people I live with, shop with, etc - believe America becomes involved in wars to help put an end to hostilities. We ARE a freedom loving people, despite whatever warped, biased view someone in Europe believes through reading their national media, listening to local politicians etc. (and you know who you are). I know very, very, very few war-mongering Americans who seek us to be Imperialistic. That is why all you uninformed, over-opinionated folks that see America as nothing but evil are simply fools. McCain lost our last election largely because the majority of Americans wanted an end to the war - period. This is contrary to the hate-America-because-they-are-war-mongers view. It demonstrated that our representative republic works. It is the same things that got us out of Viet Nam.

And as far as Israel in concerned, I believe our spilling American blood for Kuwait had very little to do with the Jews. It was simply the right thing to do. We OFTEN spill our blood for weaker nations...because it's the right thing to do. You may not like it, maybe you would rather Palestine win because of your various extreme anti-Semitic views...but I know our nation would not stand by and allow an attempt at the genocide of Palestine, either...otherwise we would allow Israel to do so already.

But ignorance is rampant in this forum, illuminated by such moronic statements as, "As a foreigner I see USA as a land full of sects and dangerous organisations manipulating people. " Uhhh....OK. I sure your nation is full of altruist heroes, huh? No politics? No corporate influence? No religious fanatics of any kind, huh? Once again, arguing with someone with such deranged, extremist and generally hate-filled views is rather pointless. But...as an American...I support your right to be such a prick. I simply pity you...

Chamois,
I'm not sure why I'm bothering, because you seem quite hardened in your extreme views, but I just wanted to clarify a few things.

"Most of Jew that live now in the so called Israel state, lived in Europe before, they went in Palestine because of their fanatism. "

First, its not a so-called state. It is actually a state. I'm not sure why 'so called' is in that statement.
I'm not sure how you define 'fanatic', but most people who went to Israel did NOT go because they are fanatic. Many (most?) of the Ashkenic Jewry went fleeing pograms in all of Europe and the Holocaust in WW2. Not because they were religious fanatics, but because they valued their own life. The Sephardic Jewry that is in Israel are mostly refugees from Arab countries that were forcibly expelled from their home countries after the creation of Israel. Again, they didn't go because they were fanatic, but because they had to.

Perhaps you were only referring to recent immigrants to Israel, since you later mention the post WW2 period. I'm not sure that is true either, but the net immigration to Israel is very small. Religious extremism is definitely a problem in Israel - without it, Israeli governments would find it easier to negotiate a withdrawal from the West Bank - but most Israelis do not fall in that category. Israel is largely a secular country. There is a large minority of 'doves' that are seeking peace through any means, but a large center that wants a WORKABLE peace. The religious right wants to hold the West Bank through any means, but as I said, most Israelis do not fall in this category.

"Since the end of WW2 the jews aren't persecuted anymore in Europe. "
I'm not sure where you get this 'fact' from. Jews were persecuted regularly throughout the communist era - after the fall of the Iron Curtain, there was a large influx of Russia and other Eastern European Jews who moved to Israel, again, not for fanaticism, but because they wanted to live somewhere where they weren't persecuted for being Jewish.

Antisemitism is on the rise in France and across Europe. Perhaps outright killing is down, but to suggest 'jews aren't persecuted' is just ignorant.

"I have really good jew friends . " Any American racist ever accused trots out that same line 'I have good friends who are Negroes.'

"YES so don't use WW2 to argue France must support the war in Iraq etc... "
Again, no one did that.

"I am glad there is not american soldiers in France anymore since they rape the children in Okinawa. " Yes, a terrible thing. And if you want me to pick up a French paper and find any criminal case and ascribe that one case to all Frenchmen, let me know.

Orathaic
"i mean that some ideas about what is going on in the world are weird and different to me because i haven't expierenced them before. "

Can you be more specific?

You are right my phrase is not very pertinent but you seems to be more hate-filled than I (I am not). Plus I cannot handle English as well as you so I try to describe my feelings with simple words (that is why it sounds extrem). If arguing with me is such a pain you can ignore me ;). But if you want know, my country is not very religious, catholism is vanishing, most people are atheist, the almost all sects came from USA. As I was born into a mormon family my point of view must be biased knowing just Utah's typical guys.

@dbj: nope i can't find any examples as extreme or weird (which i hadn't seen before) from any americans in this thread - i did just go back and look

"That is why all you uninformed, over-opinionated folks that see America as nothing but evil are simply fools." - i am glad this is not a representative of all Americans. In the same way as Chamois is not representative of Europeans.

I have never claimed America is evil. I may in fact have spent more time criticising the mistakes America has made and less time thanking them for the great contributions but it is fairly normal to spend more time talking about the things we disagree on - and the conversation about all the good things in America would be rather short.

DBJ i hope we can find some common ground between the Chamois and Krellin's extreme points of view:

"Antisemitism is on the rise in France and across Europe." i'm not sure this is true, but then most of the Jewish people I know in Ireland are second or third generation atheists - There is only a very small Jewish population here. (but then we've been spending so much time hating and discriminating against Protestants we haven't had much time to be anti-semetic) - Religions

Ireland ~ 2006 : Roman Catholic 86.8%, No Religion 4.4%, Church of Ireland 3.0%, Islam 0.8%, Presbyterian 0.6%, Orthodox 0.5%, Methodist 0.3%, Other 2.1% (2006).

"a Castro loving Communist" - let's take some names.

Anti-Semitism in Europe
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1162191.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/08/police-patrols-antisemitism-jewish-community

most people in france are atheist?

"27% consider themselves atheists, and 65.3% Roman Catholic" - but church attendance is still much lower than 65% but france doesn't collect this information in their census so i don't have any better data.

That sounds like anti-Israeli behaviour being directed at Jews (and i think i noted the Jews who didn't go to Israel are the ones who wanted to live in their current country - though this doesn't mean they are AGAINST the idea of Israel, it's just not for them)

So it is horrible stupid and unfair to blame them for Israeli actions and I would go so far as to say it is anti-semetic (but the hate is against Israel not jews because they happen to be jewish)

I would say the UK has more problems with Anti-Muslim behaviour considering the fact the British Muslims have been involved in terrorist actions against the British state. Which is much more personal...

I'm sure the BNP (a rascist British Political party) are a source of both anti-semitism AND anti-muslim propoganda - that said i hope they will remain a minor party which yeilds little or no power after the coming election.

"That sounds like anti-Israeli behaviour being directed at Jews (and i think i noted the Jews who didn't go to Israel are the ones who wanted to live in their current country - though this doesn't mean they are AGAINST the idea of Israel, it's just not for them) "

I'm not sure the people being threatened care about the distinction you are making. So you are saying the anger is justified, but not who it is directed against? Again, does it matter to the victim? The Catholics of Ireland may be for or against Israel too, and it makes just as much sense to attack them for Israeli policy.

If Ireland voted against the US in a UN vote, would it make sense for me to go blow up a church? Or an Irish bar? Even if the owners of the bar had been in the US for generations?

no, i'm saying even if the anger is justified it is being vented in the wrong way.

I was in Dundee when anti-war protests marched on their city hall. That was a group of people who didn't think that the UK should have invaded Iraq marching down the street to the seat of political power - which is the 'normal' way of expressing anger in this case.

Violence against people just because they are jewish IS anti-semetic - Disagreeing with Israeli foreign and military policy is not.

"The Catholics of Ireland may be for or against Israel too, and it makes just as much sense to attack them for Israeli policy." - no because humans don't group these two things together.

"would it make sense..." it would not make sense, and it is wrong, I even think it makes more sense that British racists attack random British muslims after other british mulsims blew up a train station than it does to attack British Jews for Israel's actions....

"DBJ i hope we can find some common ground between the Chamois and Krellin's extreme points of view: "

I just reread this thread. Can you tell me which of Krellin's viewpoints you consider 'extreme'?

Without quoting your entire last post - based on your last post, why did you feel the need to state 'That sounds like anti-Israeli behaviour being directed at Jews '. Its anti-Semitism either way, discriminating against Jews BECAUSE they are Jews. Why the need to clarify?

'Guess what Mrs Jew? I got good news. The people blowing up your business aren't doing it because you killed Jesus, but because you bombed Gaza. Isn't that great? We've progressed so far!'

McCain lost the last election because of the Iraq War? Um no. He lost because of the financial crisis. I know of no serious observers of American politics who believe that he lost because of Iraq. Iraq actually helped him in most polling I've seen. He was among the very few people advocating for the surge and the surge worked. In early September McCain had a lead. His polling numbers dropped by 10 during the first week of the crisis and he then lost by slightly less than that. Unless one would claim that the American electorate suddenly discovered his position on the Iraq War in mid-September of 2008, that assertion of causality seem ridiculous. Why you vote a particular way has little bearing on aggregate opinion. That is called a part equals the whole fallacy.

As for Turks killing Kurds, when I was an undergrad it was explicitly labeled a genocide by the leftist anti-American crowd and was linked to other "genocides" by various other American allies. Noam Chomsky spent the better part of the 80s and early 90s going all over Europe screaming about American culpability in Turkish slaughter of Kurds. They killed 10,000s of Kurds in their "dirty" war. If the Kruds were firing rockets into Istanbul and highjacking airplanes on a regular basis and actively trying to destroy the Turkish nation-state, I am quite doubtful that their would be any Kurds left alive in Turkey.

And yes Pakistan (if we are to consider them a part of the Middle East) have butchered the Baluchi in reasonably large numbers. Not to mention the fact that Pakistan was born out of one of the greatest mass ethnic slaughters in human history. Without adjusting for relative size and just dealing in absolute numbers, I will wager you 100 bucks that there are today more Muslims in Israel than there are Hindus in Pakistan. That did not happen without quite violent ethnic cleansing.

As for Jewish lobbying, Jews support pretty much only one political party, which is the less pro-Israel party. Which then begs the question of how did the PLO effectively kill a man running for President in the US and still maintain support of any kind. Evangelical Protestant support for Israel is a relatively recent phenomenon and is not driven by by end of times crap. Muslims behave like murderous whack-jobs and American Rednecks (Jacksonians in the language of American Political Theory) respond by sympathizing with the Israeli point of view. Consider that right now an American TV program is being refused the right to broadcast by their network because of death threats by a Muslim group in the US because they showed Mohammad not being shown. They showed him as a giant black rectangle marked censored. The kind of Americans who are Evangelical Christians are the kind of people who respond to such idiocy by supporting whatever the other side is. I could probably convince them pretty easily to support India is Kashmir. It is a fairly recent thing that American Rednecks have become aware of what Huntington referred to as the bleeding borders of Islam.

As for the "I saw something on Youtube" arguments, we in this country have free speech which is among other things interpreted to mean that broadcasting is not run by the Government. Anyone can get almost anything broadcast. France not too long ago had a second place Presidential candidate who said that the Holocaust was a mere detail of History. That is both a more serious indictment of France and at the same time meaningless. However, if 17% of France voted for such a man, I think you owe us at least some understanding that someone on American TV once said something about the EU.

As a non Democrat and a non republican I think McCain lost the election because of the far right's push against him which forced him to flip to maintain his base. This made him a no vote for the independent middle which should have been his strength. Now this same fringe group has created this insane "Tea Party" that apparently believe in anarchy as they hate any form of government that regulates them. America is at a dangerous moment in history. I hope that they see the real danger that they are facing because unfortunately, all of our lives are balanced with theirs as we've recently seen. The Tea Party is a much bigger threat to the world than Terrorism. The terrorists are crazies in the 3rd world but the Tea party are crazies in the most power military country in the world. That should make us all sleep less as they continue to grow support with their anarchical message.

@gopher "The kind of Americans who are Evangelical Christians are the kind of people who respond to such idiocy by supporting whatever the other side is. I could probably convince them pretty much to support India is Kashmir" errrr....do you know any? Talk about someone being easily convinced...I think that would be that narrow-minded bigot that hates Evangelicals and paints them all with a broad brush as if every one of them is some sort of ignoramus. I wonder if you realize that one of the greatest living Evangelicals, Billy Graham, is in fact a Democrat. Your asinine expression towards evangelicals is no better than any other hate speech, and equally uninformed.

But at least your anti-religious bias is equally belligerent. "Muslims behave like murderous whack-jobs..." I'm sure you didn't intend it as such, but you are talking about a extreme minority of Muslims. But this also shows your ignorance....Muslims have a rather glorious history of murder. Jihad is hardly a new concept, and beheading the infidel hardly a new technique. But again, it's a relatively infinitesimal minority that besmirches an entire religion.

But you illuminate quite nicely the fact that amongst the (I assume) non-religious there is as many uninformed, bigoted people as there are amongst the religious; people who *think* they know all about the beliefs of another, and falsely accuse people they don't know of extreme hatreds that don't exist except for in a vocal few.

@C-K The Tea Party believes in anarchy? Wow...the ignorance just abounds on these boards. Do you KNOW anybody affiliated? Have you talked to any? How does "stop overspending" and "lower taxes" equal anarchy? What incredible nonsense...

Actually I'm half Texas Redneck Evangelical Protestant and half Urban Irish Catholic. I can honestly say I've never been accused of being anti-religious before. Generally the ad hominem attacks go full bore the other way. And growing up in Houston, Texas (energy capital of the world), I'd be willing to bet I've known more Muslims than you have. Just assuming you are a random draw from the distribution of most people who speak English. I was actually not far from Mecca around Christmas. When I described Evangelical Redneck Protestants, I had a good portion of my extended family in mind.

As for Tea Party people, I happen to get a tourists thrill from political rallies and can generally be convinced to attend to people watch. Therefore, I went to the original Tea Party and they seemed like rather normal suburban types to me. Usual crowd for such gatherings. White demographic doughnut. A fair number of older people and then young couples with young kids. Same people that were at Mike Huckabee's last political rally. You might have seen the back of my head on CNN....If Chuck Norris is scheduled to appear, I'm there. There were the Ron Paul people on the periphery trying to sign people up for email lists, but they did not seem like that big of a presence. Kind of like the Lyndon LaRouche people on most college campuses.

Oh yeah, to more fully respond, I bet Franklin Graham votes Republican.

McCain had a poll lead in September. Independents abandoned him at the exact moment that he made the lets call off the campaign and go back to DC to vote for the bailout announcement. The coworker I do most of my stuff with is a diehard liberal Democrat with mathematical leanings; I got treated to almost day by day analysis of various voting groups polling during the campaign.

@gopher - I've lived with Muslims as well...most of them decent enough as compared to any other person I've met. Some real nice, some not...just like Christians I've known, just like atheists I've known. The only singular group of people I have ever met that I have found - across the board - are just good, decent human beings are Mormons. Salt of the earth - from what I've met.

I'm evangelical, but I'm not a Redneck Texan. Maybe the problem you have with evangelicals is with your family, and not with the Evangelicals as you describe them. No insult intended. Maybe us Michigan evangelicals (mixed Democrat/Republican state) are a little more level headed - I don't know.

Franklin Graham isn't Billy Graham...but I would have thought Billy he was Republican when I was younger based upon the similar sorts of pre-conceived bias you previously expressed. He's not...turns out good people can have different political philosophy. Frankly, I could care less what Franklin Graham votes...he claims no political affiliation and simply seeks to spread the message of God that he believes in.

Where does this I have problems with Evangelicals bit come from? I was contradicting a Frenchman's assertion that Evangelicals support Israel because of end times prophecy. Coming from a family of Israel supporting Evangelicals, I stated that that was not the case in my experience.

Billy Graham was a Democrat in the same way Sam Nunn, Fritz Holling and Zell Miller were Democrats. Both Richard Perl and Toby Keith are card carrying Democrats. I don't see your point. Billy Graham is/was an old White Guy from the South. That a great many of them remained Democrats while being very Conservative was not that rare. However, he was a Democrat for Nixon, so I'd say his voting was probably on the Right side of the ballot for the last few decades even if he remained nominally a Democrat. Allan Shivers and Jesse Jones eventually joined Hugh Roy Cullen in supporting Republicans for President while being the two most powerful Democrats in Texas. In the South, there was always a distinction between being a State Democrat and a National Democrat. The Republicans did not take over Texas until 2002 or 1998 depending on your definition.