Moshe Feiglin, whose FB post you so helpfully posted, is in a way a Likud faction leader. The thing you forgot to mention is that he is the only member of his faction that is a member of Knesset. His faction numbers a few thousands Likkud members, most of whom actually vote for other parties in the general elections (a very dirty trick, in my opinion, but there is no way to stop it). My point is, he represents a negligible percentage of Likkud voters. I myself am not one, I have no interest in defending those who do, but one has to know the fact to argue such points as you do.
His views are definitely extreme, not only in the military sense: he is considered the only libertarian MP, and one of only two pro marijuana-legalization MPs in the Knesset.

So yes, in a proposal I was unaware of, an MP with views not reflecting those of his party is advocating wildly violent methods of dealing with the Gazan threat. Methods which I find horrible, morally corrupt, and downright crazy. But he represents mostly himself.

This is like saying that the GOP of the 90s wanted a return to the gold standard since Ron Paul was a congressman.

"Gazans are struggling to survive and Hamas is the elected government of Gaza."

Doesn't mean you have to support them to oppose what Israel is doing.

"I'm not going to attack the Palestinians just because it makes you happy."

How is clarifying your position on Hamas an attack on the Palestinians? When you eventually did clarify that, did you attack them?

I mention this because it does really make everything in this thread difficult to interpret, and overheated.

Also, @obiwanobiwan, stop making shit up.

@tendmote:

Before I address that point, to what are you referring?

I was referring to the idea that Putin33 is a supporter of Hamas. "All ye Hamas supporters" and all that. A lot of this thread was dedicated to that. So much, in fact, that I can't figure out what this thread was really about anymore.

He's expressed his support for them vs. Israel numerous times now...

Whether he supports them period or simply against Israel, he has supported them.

I'd also note that while I've repeatedly said any Israeli calls for Palestinian extermination are wrong, Putin has yet to denounce Hamas' calls for the extermination of the Jews, which I have now cited repeatedly, with video and text, with numerous sources, including video from Hamas' broadcast on their Al-Aqsa station (reposted on palwatch's YouTube channel.)

I've also quoted their founding charter on this point as well.

And yet, while I've already decried those on the Israeli side who call for extermination, Putin has not done the same and denounced Hamas' calls for the extermination of the Jewish people...the most he's done is brush the question off and question the sources, which I responded to by both reaffirming those already present and posting additional sources.

This is not tangential to the main point, either--indeed, as I'll repeat for what must be the 80th or so time now, I can see my way clear to supporting Palestinian moderates in the West Bank because they DON'T make such wholesale claims.

Whether they can carry out their desires or not, the fact remains that it's rather hard for me to sympathize with Hamas' position as a result...calls for genocide against Jews are a pretty sure way to ensure that most Jews won't support you and, indeed, will probably be inclined to respond harshly...

Which is why, since this conflict began, I have been blaming Hamas Hamas Hamas.

If this were another Palestinian group, this either wouldn't have happened, or, as in the case of West Bank clashes, I'd likely be far more inclined to side at least in part with the Palestinians, given the power disparity.

BUT...we have Hamas, making calls for genocide...in a region that's already seeing more and more radicalized, powerful, and bloodthirsty factions take power...

That's no idle threat, it's a fair charge to hold against Hamas, and it's a fair question to ask anyone who supports Hamas, either in full or simply vs. Israel, how they can reconcile supporting such a group that wants to "exterminate Jews to the last one" while claiming to hold the humanitarian high ground.

Here's a fun thing on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9J-vK2gqGo

A video of a song by Hamas in Hebrew urging combat against Israel and the IDF. A psychological weapon, if you will.

It has become an almost viral hit with Israelis, due to the funny accent (for instance, using B instead of P, since that phoneme does not exist in Arabic) and our long-standing tradition of laughing at horrible situations (for instance, it is well known that the first Holocaust jokes were made up in the camps by Jews).
I have to say that apart from using a few outdated forms of speech, the singer Hebrew is very good.

Here is a partial translation of the lyrics:

Attack, cause terrorist attacks
Wipe out all Zionists
shake Israel's security

Coming in contact with Zionists
Burning camps and soldiers
shake Israel's security
expose [IDF armoured type vehicles]

A state of weakness and illusion
can't hold up in war
revealed as spider webs
when confronted with knights

etc etc.

Pardon my admittedly unelegant translation, they should have sent a poet.

BTW, Putin, what do you suppose the line "Wipe out all Zionists" means?

"The thing you forgot to mention is that he is the only member of his faction that is a member of Knesset"

Feiglin recently won 25% of the Likud primary vote in a challenge to Netanyahu's leadership (which was probably rigged in Bibi's favor). He was ranked 15th on the Likud party list in the recent elections, which guaranteed him an MK position.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hardliner-moshe-feiglin-set-to-become-mk-as-likud-chooses-hawks-over-moderates-for-knesset-slate/

"Doesn't mean you have to support them to oppose what Israel is doing."

Doesn't mean I have to attack them either. I'm not playing the false equivalence game. The defenders of Israeli warcrimes can post all the songs they want and deflect attention from the rhetoric of their favorite country and the slaughter of children, but nobody's falling for it anymore.

He was elected 15th on the list, out of 21 who were ultimately voted in (31 incl. the "Israel Beitenu" party, which has since split back as a separate faction).

Feiglin had no real chance of winning Netanyahu's place as party chairman, despite having a lot of his voter base actual voters of more right-wing parties in the general elections (as previously stated).

In the elections of the previous term, Netanyahu HAS maneuvered to lower Feiglin's ranking on the party list (keeping him away from the Knesset), which led to a public outcry. That's why I doubt he would have done something similar again. Of course, it is impossible to know.

@Putin33

"Doesn't mean I have to attack them either."

Fair enough, but it's confusing when you only defend them.

At any rate, the Israeli attack on Gaza is causing death and destruction and achieving nothing. It's not clear to me what anyone realistically thought it would achieve. It looks simply like venting frustration by meeting Hamas's "no right to exist" rhetoric with actual actions along the same line, by making the places where Palestinians live unlivable.

What it was meant to achieve differs based on who you're asking. For Netanyahu, it's the same as Cast Lead. Devastate Gaza so the Gazans blame Hamas for their lives being miserable. This was achieved to a certain degree after Cast Lead. Hamas's popularity declined. For the settler movement which, contrary to H.H's claims, is ascendant within Likud, they want a Greater Israel, and clearing out Gaza is a step in that direction.

I never claimed the settler movement isn't an organic part of Likud, it's just that Feiglin's views (like withdrawing from the UN, breaking off diplomatic relations with Germany etc) are foreign to it, and in fact to any other party currently in the Knesset.

Feiglin =! settlers, although his supporters tend to come more from the settler base, due to his political and religious views. But like I kept stressing when I started posting in this thread, the bigger picture is always more complex than just black and white.

Putin, you still haven't answered this:
"BTW, Putin, what do you suppose the line "Wipe out all Zionists" means? "

Yeah, here's the big picture

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/5/fixing-gaza-economy.html

6 billion in damage. Gaza has no economy. And the siege isn't lifted so it's not like they can rebuild.

""BTW, Putin, what do you suppose the line "Wipe out all Zionists" means? ""

I don't know or care. After this war, the constant chirping about anti-Semitism has lost any moral standing it ever had. But when you butcher people, they're not going to love you. Hamas's demands during this war were very moderate, and Israel just blows the place to shreds. It's indefensible. And no amount of red herrings with songs can change that.

Clearly not that alien if 25% of Likud voters were willing to back him. Giving a genocidaire an automatic MK spot speaks to what Likud is today.

"I don't know or care".

Great way to present your argument. Remind me to use it next time you tell me anything.

Offtopic, how do you feel about Putin (the real one, Vladimir Vladimirovich) vis-a-vis the liberal movement in Russia? I'm genuinely curious. If this isn't the place for that kind of discussion, please reply in a private message. Thanks!

Ah OK all that rockets and tunnels horseshit didn't make any sense to me, I don't know why anyone bothers to offer that as an explanation.

"I don't know or care."

Truer words you've never spoken, you DON'T care about wiping people out at all...just as long as it's the people YOU want wiped out.

Nice.

"After this war, the constant chirping about anti-Semitism has lost any moral standing it ever had."

Mhm...no Antisemitism in the world...that's why synagogues and Jewish shops were burned in France and Jews have been assaulted in numerous European nations...to say nothing of the vitriol that certain Arab nations spit out...

Just admit that you, Putin, don't think threatening Jews with genocide is a big deal.

And then come back and tell us all that you're interested in "peace," when your idea of that is conquest which, as our fun exercise in "using words according to their actual definition" showed last night, means your idea of peace, conquest, includes Cortez conquering the Aztecs...

Because I assure you, Putin, you're the only one here who bought that "conquest doesn't have to be bloody" line of yours.

If you're not Antisemitic, you're the next worst thing--indifferent to whether Jews are attacked or threatened...you've shown nothing but indifference (or worse) to that proposition the entire conversation here.

"It's indefensible. And no amount of red herrings with songs can change that."

And I suppose Hamas' official charter or video excerpts of their speeches don't count, either...

Not when the Likud charter calls for a greater Israel, no.

Sorry the guy who keeps defending the assaults on schools and hospitals isn't going to win any points for moral clarity here.

Can somebody please tell me why Palestinians should love Zionists and sing songs in their praise when 95% of the Israeli population supported the annihilation of Gaza? Explain to me how that works. Should the Armenians love the Turks too?

"Sorry the guy who keeps defending the assaults on schools and hospitals isn't going to win any points for moral clarity here."

This isn't about "winning points," or even me being in the right, or wrong--

It's about why you don't seem to have a problem supporting genocide-advocating Hamas against Israel, and why no evidence given by me or others that they want a genocide of Jews is met with anything but indifference...

"Can somebody please tell me why Palestinians should love Zionists and sing songs in their praise when 95% of the Israeli population supported the annihilation of Gaza? Explain to me how that works. Should the Armenians love the Turks too?"

1. Source for your lovely percentage?

2. The Armenians didn't call for the extermination of every last Turk...

Funny, how you're upset about some groups meeting or being threatened with extermination, but when it comes to Jews...you just don't give a damn...

And your only response is "Antisemitism? Pfff...WHAT Antisemitism? Those burning synagogues in France, those millions in the Middle East wanting to kill all the Jews...who cares?"

Both sides would prefer the other side to be gone, it's just Israel is more effective at taking steps in it's preferred direction. Neither side is particularly saintly and there will never be any agreement or peace. However I don't see any virtue in making things worse just because things are bad; I'm not sure on what basis the Gaza attacks are justified. Is it really going to make things better?

"It's about why you don't seem to have a problem supporting genocide-advocating Hamas against Israel"

You don't have a problem supporting genocide-advocating Israel against the Palestinians. You don't have any problem bombing schools and hospitals indiscriminately.

You don't have a leg to stand on.

"Those burning synagogues in France"

Gaza was just flattened. There's a humanitarian disaster there. You've been a cheerleader for this massacre. Shut up.

obi-goebbels has difficulty with the distinction between the abject and powerless THREATENING genocide(Hamas) and the world's fourth most powerful military ACTUALLY CARRYING OUT genocide(Israel).

It's an important distinction.