Thats not whati said, yoy claimed in dramatic fashion to be going to work yet here you are.

"You derailed it, you made a fucking awful argument that the roots of this gaza operation is Jewish aggression since before the UN partition, which was one sided. I am pointing out that that argument is bullshit, it seems now that you agree, or do you? "Arabs defended themselves" Your bias speaks for itself. "

You're going to have to cite where I attempted to connect the UN partition to the modern gaza operation, because I think you're way out to lunch here and have completely lost sight of what any one is saying. You were going on about the history of the region, I offered a summary trying to clamp a derail, why bringing the topic back to what the topic is about. You're continuing down this path trying to find some gotcha event that gives you last word or something. You keep citing 1929 as if that's the start of or a significant date in the Jewish-Arab tensions in anyway when in reality it comes pretty late in the game. The fact is that Arab Palestinians were living there (not a utopia) for many decades before various, newly established Zionist elements began pressing for a Jewish state. Obviously calling for a singular secular state in a land where people of many different religious backgrounds are already living is going to cause some problems, and you see throughout the various riots and massacres you cite a clear line of 1) fear of losing territory 2) zionist provocation 3) violent response. Again, it's tit-for-tat for a long time in that era, building each other up.

But none of that has anything to do with the modern gaza campaign that is happening today.

I was more interested in the fact that he called you by the name "Draugnar"...

Can you please get off my case about the timezones thing, while we're at it? I admitted my mistake on that one. For you to bear a grudge about it after all this time is just weird.

*I claimed in disgust that I'm off to work.

And I'll do it again

I'm off to work.

Im sure you have an important job calling people antisemites for a living.

@Sc, You off to work?

And now I want to fucking come back and respond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

but I can't

good day all

Hes Draugnar in the sense that he likes to brag about his job and economic status while flaming on here.

so how about that Israel eh? woo-wee remember when Obi said they wanted nothing to do with Gaza, just for Hamas to be gone?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html

And after the great flamewar on WebDip, nothing changed in the world.

Santa - assuming they're right about going to work at 9am, there aren't too many places in the world that are 9am right now. Parts of Alaska, Hawaii, maybe a few other islands. 9pm though, and you could be anywhere in Europe. Not trying to figure out where in the world you are, but just pointing out that other people's reactions to that aren't unreasonable.

Chairman/Jamiet - thanks for the explanation of sources. Most of those links don't work for me since the work computer blocks them anyways.

@Chairman - the buffer zone has nothing to do with permanent occupation. They're doing that to try and *reduce* civilian casualties. By forcing people to evacuate the buffer zone, they can respond with more force to any attacks originating from it - since anyone still there would presumably have hostile intent.

Israel is there to do a job - destroy the tunnels - and they'll be gone once its done. The buffer zone is an attempt to minimize collateral damage, and if anything should be welcomed and encouraged by the international community, who supposedly cares so much about the well being of Palestinians.

"@Chairman - the buffer zone has nothing to do with permanent occupation. They're doing that to try and *reduce* civilian casualties."

This would be true if they weren't also shelling the city center, which they are. This is a policy of collective punishment and to put more pressure on Gazans. And no, not everyone who would be in the buffer zone presumably has hostile intent. Those were peoples homes. Entire neighborhoods, extinguished.

"
Israel is there to do a job - destroy the tunnels - and they'll be gone once its done. The buffer zone is an attempt to minimize collateral damage, and if anything should be welcomed and encouraged by the international community, who supposedly cares so much about the well being of Palestinians. "

lol no way this can't be real.

"Entire neighborhoods, extinguished"

lol, they're not going through with bulldozers tearing everything down. They just want people to leave while they do their operation.

you're not, they're not using bulldozers, they're just bombing it wholesale

*you're right

They want people to leave and then fire on the evacuation centers.

"What people don't want to know and admit to is that Jews have lived in Israel through the Roman Occupation to the present."

It is truly bizarre to see it claimed of late here on webdip and elsewhere that there really wasn't a Jewish Diaspora, and that the Jews really were in Palestine these last two millenia.

"Jews bought land after World War I in Israel. The place was already Jewish before the UN resolutions so it wasn't Jews suddenly seizing the land."

Jewish colonists owned a whopping 6% of Palestine in 1943. But the UN Partition gave Jews control of 56% - almost ten times the land that was actually theirs by lawful and legitimate purchase.

"After the Arabs declared war, Israel captured lands just like any other power that wins a war."

You have it backwards. Israel started "capturing" Palestinian lands by expelling or murdering the inhabitants months before "the Arabs declared war".

Putin, maybe you are not helping here.. I like what you say chairman, and I'd also like to go back to the OP.
Particularly that I completely disagree with it. Because to me it is the typical propaganda that allows Israel to justify its action.. Hundreds of civilian Palestinians get killed, but when people see it in the news they just think, meh...as usual... And the minute a Israeli SOLDIER is wounded or kidnapped this a horrible hate crime committed by antisemitic terrorists and they deserve to be exterminated.... It is this worldwide though and communication scandal that really revolts me and make me sometimes hate people that defend the israelian government and its recent history choices

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict

If you scroll down to the area by casualties, it shows where every Israeli airstrike has occurred. Yes, some are in the city center, but the clear majority of the strikes are within said 3 mile buffer zone. They're trying to limit unnecessary loss of life. Given that this is a war, what else would you have them do?

Again, I don't think everyone is going into this with a war attitude in mind. The IDF is treating this as a war zone. If you tell civilians to leave and they refuse to, you assume they have hostile intent. The US does it all the time. My dad's buddies were in 'Nam and they had orders to guard a road and shoot anyone who comes down it, since all the locals had been warned.

Take that scenario into the modern day. Israel tells people leave, since there could be military operations in the area. Don't be surprised that people stay behind have their house hit.

What really, really bothers me is how so many of Hamas' leadership are willing to sacrifice their families. Israel has launched airstrikes against the leaders' households, this is well know. Rarely, however are the militants themselves killed, since they got their asses off into hiding. But do they bother bringing their family with them to a safe place? Nope. Good for PR.

Decimating 40% of Gaza isn't what I would calling trying to minimize collateral damage, nor is 1500 dead trying to limit unnecessary loss of life. This is not war in any traditional sense, it is a slaughter

"Take that scenario into the modern day. Israel tells people leave, since there could be military operations in the area. Don't be surprised that people stay behind have their house hit."

The difference being is we're not talking about open country in like Nam, but one of the most densly populated cities in the world, now made only denser by Israel, in which the civilians have no place to retreat to. They're told to flee to the city center, and then are bombed when they go there. They're told to retreat to UN schools, which are bombed as well. There's no escape for the average Gazan citizen.

Your justification for targeting civilian homes while still claiming Israel is trying to minimize civilian harm is gross.

And meanwhile you manage to blame Hamas for Israeli murder.

Ther ARE no safe places in Gaza, thats the point.

" If you tell civilians to leave and they refuse to, you assume they have hostile intent."

Where exactly are Gazan civilians supposed to go? The refugee camps Israel keeps bombing? The beaches Israeli warships keep shelling? Should they go live under an olive tree for the duration? Expecting people to stay out of the line of fire in one of the most densely populated areas on earth while refusing to allow anyone to leave (with a reasonable expectation of returning) is absurd.

Whats your justification for taking out the power to the hospital?

Chairman - I would pause before saying they're decimating 40% of Gaza. 40% of Gaza falls within the buffer zone, but 80% of Israel is being targeted daily by rockets, so lets not make it seem completely one-sided. And this is war just as much as Mogadishu was for the US and the UN rescue force there in 1993. The casualty rate was much higher there. 18 US deaths and 1,500-3,000 casualties on the Somalian side.

And yeah, Israel looks awful for hitting UN schools and refugee shelters. But you must remember, most (if not all) of those schools were empty. And in the last week, UNRWA workers have found missile caches in three of their schools. If Hamas will not respect UN neutrality and use those areas as weapons depots, why should Israel? And its not like those weapons are destroyed by the UN once they're found - they're given back to Hamas!

Much of these strikes which have high civilian casualties are because of Hamas. They store weapons in places with high civilian populations. They choose to shoot mortars near apartment complexes. They know Israel will target weapons caches and they know the IDF will respond with counter-fire to any incoming strikes (as any military force in the world is trained to do). Is Israel at fault for innocent deaths? Of course, they pulled the trigger. But the message I'm trying to put across is that it's Hamas who put the gun to innocent civilians' heads. Israel is not on a murderous rampage to destroy all of Gaza. If they wanted to, they would've done so already.