Somewhat harsh, ora. Every country has its dark chapters, and focusing solely on them is ridiculous. Very few, however, have done as much that can be counted as great as America though.

The obvious highlights being playing a major role in defeating the evil of the Nazis despite them being half a world away, holding back the terrifying red tide of Communism, being at the cutting edge of science and technology and space exploration, being a shining beacon of diplomacy to inspire nations across the globe etc etc.

The US was undoubtedly great, and arguably still is. Although much that has made it great has diminished.

@Oct, pure propoganda. The US government had a plan for dividing up the world into a nazi region of influence and a US region (the americas) and the people didn't want to get involved in a second european war. The had felt how bad the first one was.

But eventually the president managed to bait the Japanese into attacking so that he could expand imperial ambitions actoss the pacific and dominate there. (Huge success by the way) defeating the Nazis and becoming the predominant military power in europe was no self-less act. It was not an attempt to defeat an evil enemy - most americans didn't know about the holocaust until after the war, and many didn't have a big problems with fascism (see internment again, the racial superiority of the 'great' american didn't really clash too badly with the fascism of the Nazis... It was only in later years that they were painted as 'Evil')

Infact, fascism was seen as a great defence against the Soviet tide, so for most of the 30s it was celebrated. Berlin Olympics with Hitler? Yep thats a real thing.

I could pretty much go on... Tech is a big success story, and i'm more than happy to criticise the exploitation of people and resources in the high tech industry (without a sharing if the wealth...)

I could say all the same things about great britian, and the Empire that once was. But just focusing on world war 2. The US sacrificed many lives. That is, the president washappy to send young men to die in europe, how noble and good, i'm so glad your revolution created a classless society where the rich don't command the poor to go off and die...

The US is undoubtedly powerful, and still is. But every society which thinks it is great tends to be...

@ ora

I have a plan for robbing the Crown Jewels. It doesn't mean anything. Of course nations draw up a whole host of contingency plans. I dare say Britain had a plan for surrendering. It doesn't matter. What matters is what they actually did, and what they did was great. Whilst other, closer, nations did nothing or actively supported them.

Your insistence on painting everything the US does as negative baffles me. At least the logical gymnastics you go through to achieve it is entertaining.

Oh Ora is just butthurt about the word of the day: RICO

HA!

Must be incredibly humiliating to be a Killary supporter right now, well it would be if her supporters had any real kind of conscience... which they don't. Just a fake one - whatever supports their venal self-interest.

I detest Hilary, and as a Republican, I will not be voting for her.

But does anyone here actually have the barest inkling of what they are talking about when they say she should go to prison? Or are you just parroting what some pundits, republican politicians, and clueless idiots like Trump say?

Let's be clear-- I am not question whether or not she is guilty. I talking about linking Hillary's actions with going to prison. There is also a HUGE difference between being guilty of running a stop sign and being guilty of murder. Even if you are guilty of running the stop sign, you're not going to jail for it.

So sure, she mishandled some data. She's almost certainly guilty and it's bad. But how bad is it? Is it criminal just because she is a woman? Because shes a libtard? Because Trump says so? Because reasons? Well the US actual has a common law legal system which means precedent plays a major role. So let's look at some precedent.

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/hillary-clinton-email-10-punished-less/

First the title "10 Times People Were Punished For FAR Less Than What Hillary Clinton Did" is pure falsehood. Several people in this list committed espionage, intentionally stealing data to provide to another country, etc. That is a serious crime. But's look deeper...

How many of these folks actually went to prison? Few. There were instead lots of fines and probations. Most of these cases ones that did go to prison were essentially intentionally stealing information, committing espionage, etc. Aside from finding cherry picking one case of a prison sentence you might find somewhere, people generally don't go to prison for mishandling classified data.

So to say Hilary should go to jail is pretty much a far fetched fantasy of people with an anti-clinton/democrat agenda.

So we give her a fine, and a probationary period where she is monitored in her use of secure data. That's really the WORST case scenario she is facing once she is elected. And there is nothing banning a convicted felon from running while incarcerated so there is definitely no legal basis to keep her out of the presidency.

Now now now, Shield, let's not inject any common sense into this thread! I prefer the tin foil hat Vince Foster conspiracies and the nonsensical FDR goaded the Japanese into attacking the US posts.

ND:
Trump has faced criminal charges in the past. While not investigated by the FBI, he is going to face time in court, including for rape allegations. He said he was gonna sue the accusers, but he was already going to be going to court for some of this in December. Also, he barely managed to outlast the statute of limitations on violating the embargo on Cuba, and he knew full well any money spent in Cuba goes to Castro. He has a criminal past. We don't have good choices for president. It's simply not true to take a moral high ground on character in this election. The only thing left to do is vote on policy. Trump has SOME good policies, but not enough to warrant me voting for him.

Also, I love ora tying the War on Poverty to the War on Drugs and War on Terror.

"@ND, when was America Great?"

I am not going to dignify this weird SJW statement with an answer. If you don't think this country has had some great moments (before Obama) then you are truly lost, my friend. I wish you well.

@TrPrado: "Trump has faced criminal charges in the past."
-Trump is not facing a criminal investigation by the FBI.

I didn't say he was. But he is due to go court for child rape allegations this December.

This nation has had great moments under most presidents INCLUDING Obama.

Also, ora, you're definitely underplaying the fact that FDR had wanted to help the British before ever declaring war. He just never could before Pearl Harbor because he presided over an isolationist population. And he did send aid to the British. But when Japan attacked, he had an excuse to help out MORE.

@TrPrado: That case is BS. Agree to disagree about Obama.

Is it BS because it's against your hero?

Hey TrPrado, while you are looking up fringe and obscure BS things you should check out Arkancide and Hillary's fixer/hitman. I hear that she is responsible for killing like 30 people personally.

You're definitely ignoring the point I said I was making by pointing to Trump's criminal past.

Here's the part I find most disturbing; we now live in a country where the court isn't a jury and a judge it's the panel from CNN , FOX or NBC. People have already decided Clinton should go to jail; that Trump is not guilty or visa versa; without knowing the actual accusations or evidence. Clinton isn't being accused of espionage or malicious intent; she's being accused of mismanagement of information. Trump has been this child rape case against him for months; whether he is guilty or not the trial needs to come to a close. Had this not been trump v generic accuser; had this been genetic rapist v woman you love the opinions would be vastly different. If Trump did commit these acts he is using his public profile to influence a criminal court system into finding him not guilty by lambasting the accuser. If not illegal that is highly unethical. Again I hate both my choices; I take no side here. Hillary should have some type of scaled punishment and trump needs to go to trial. My dilemma here is if both are guilty who would I rather be the leader of the free world:
- woman found guilty of mismanaging information
-man found guilty of child rape

If he was found guilty can you fathom how embarrassing that would be for the US on the world stage? To lose our president to a prison sentence a month before the inauguration.

@TrPrado and @CommanderByron: Yes, like I already said the case is bullshit (BS). The case was already dismissed once, out of hand, in California. Sorry, but this was discredited a long time ago.

On the other hand there is ample evidence that Bill Clinton raped and sexually assaulted a lot of people. There is ample evidence that Hillary Clinton broke federal law and mishandled classified information.

Please don't try to bring up discredited and dismissed court cases when Bill/Hillary are literally the personification of abuse against women and criminal corruption. You look foolish.

No Trump has not been found guilty of rape. The case was originally dismissed and then refiled as a political hit job under mysterious circumstances. Bill has ACTUALLY raped women. Bill has ACTUALLY abused women WHILE he was GOV and PRESIDENT. Hillary has ACTUALLY committed criminal acts and enabled her husband in the suppression of his victims. She didn't want their stories from coming out. Hillary has ACTUALLY committed criminal acts and attempted to cover up her crimes with her server. This is in addition to all of the scandals of the Clinton Presidency: Travelgate, Whitewater, Filegate, affairs, scandals, corruption, abuse of power.

Jesus Christ how is the choice not crystal clear for you people?

Give me a break

I am going to set my clock for the Clinton defense team (Brainbomb/TrPrado/others) to come in here and attempt to spin this.

I will give it 5 minutes before the Clinton defense team shows up.

I've never said Clinton isn't a criminal. I'm just saying is also a criminal. He violated the embargo against Cuba. He won't be investigated or tried for it though because the statute of limitations has been exceeded.

A company under the Trump umbrella may have violated the embargo, but Trump did not have anything to do with it.

Trump's main business. The one that has been the most consistently successful and most associated with him at a time when he had more personal control of his businesses.

Don't buy it. Trump has over 500 companies and businesses under his Trump organization umbrella. He isn't personally involved in every decision.

Trump Hotels and Casino Resorts. Trump himself was not only founder but at the time, in 1998, he played a big role in the decisions that company made, as he was majority stakeholder AND chairman.

I mean I can keep repeating myself, but I will let my previous two comments stand. Nice to see you switched from the BS dismissed case to some other dismissed and discredited talking point.

ND, I don't know why you think Trump is such a good guy.
I agree Hillary has done things that should put her in jail 10x over, and that it's so aggravating seeing some people worship her and say she's a good person.

But fact of the matter is, the evidence against Donald Trump supports that he is not a good person either. You can still be voting for him, viewing him as the lesser of two evils, but why are you trying to defend him from everything.
He's not an angel rescuing the world from the warmongering establishment. Heck, he was great friends with Hillary before the election. Don't let your hatred of one candidate blind you about the other candidate.

America was great during the 1920s and 1950s. I'd say 1980s as well if not for Reagan Amnesty.

@Fluminator: I think Trump is a really good person actually. He has taken more smear and political hit jobs than other candidate in history and is still fighting. The motive to keep fighting for ordinary Americans like me is really inspiring and I think we can all find admirable traits in that. His message is a simple yet powerful one and in should be something we can all get behind. After 8 grim years of degradation, corruption, war and terror we finally have a chance to put things right. Again, a powerful motivation to support Trump. What Trump was before he started running doesn't matter to me. What he is now, his positions now, and his optimistic and strong vision for a better America is what is important to me.

I hope that makes sense.