Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 1190 of 1419
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Kallen (1157 D)
13 Aug 14 UTC
ESPN Streak for the Ca$h
Anyone here play this with at least semi-seriousness, and is there interest in making a webDip group on ESPN for friendly competition? I haven't been picking too much but with CFB and NFL seasons starting up in a couple weeks, I plan on trying again. I've gotten up to W21 before during football season.
2 replies
Open
Squigs44 (273 D)
13 Aug 14 UTC
Conway's Game of Life
I suspect many of you are familiar with Conway's game of life, and there may have been a thread on this topic in the past, but I have been messing around with different patterns and I find this 'game' simply amazing. Such simple physics, but such complex and cool things can happen. If you aren't familiar with the game check out the rules here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_Game_of_Life
For those who do know about this, what is the coolest pattern you have seen??
3 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 14 UTC
Tony Stewart Accidentally Runs Over/Kills Driver During Race
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtBH9FJ3LOU I have never watched a NASCAR or Sprint Cup race in my life...because frankly, I couldn't care less about cars going around and around in a circle 500 times (I don't doubt it's hugely challenging and takes talent, it's just not for me) but wow...what a way to go. :/ Getting run over like that mid-race, shit...
112 replies
Open
TheMinisterOfWar (553 D)
13 Aug 14 UTC
WHO approves unregistered interventions on Ebola patients
What could possibly go wrong?

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/who-approves-use-unregistered-interventions-ebola-patients
1 reply
Open
ERAUfan97 (549 D)
12 Aug 14 UTC
(+1)
possible banned members page?
I visit a site called GTPlanet and they have a banned members page with some hilarious explanations of why the user was banned. I think it would be cool and funny to have one here as well!
Here's the page from GTPlanet as an example
http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/banned-user-log.70684/
12 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
10 Aug 14 UTC
3 world games up
Stoneship I gameID=145085 20 hour phases
Stoneship II gameID=145724 18 hour phases
Stoneship III gameID=145725 16 hour phases
All Messaging Points/Supply Center
24 replies
Open
tendmote (100 D(B))
10 Aug 14 UTC
Is it possible for there to be a war where all sides are actually *right*?
We're all familiar with the idea that there are wars in which everyone is at fault. Let's consider the hypothetical opposite: Is it possible for there to be a war where all sides are actually *right*?
(This is somewhat related to the "religious people so anti-humanity" topic but I think this deserves it's own thread.)
67 replies
Open
philcore (317 D(S))
11 Aug 14 UTC
in toronto for a day.
What should I do? Right now I'm hanging in dundas square at the hard rock.

Any suggestions?
46 replies
Open
CoXBoT (100 D)
12 Aug 14 UTC
number of players
new to the site and am starting a new game with some friends. We like the American Empire map, but do not have 10 players. can we start a game with fewer than that?
1 reply
Open
LeonWalras (865 D)
07 Aug 14 UTC
Looking for a new Russia
gameID=144987

Not a bad position to take over, otherwise we're paused indefinitely!
17 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
12 Aug 14 UTC
Jimmy Savile - fondly remembered
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15507826

Oh how some people loved that man .....
0 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
12 Aug 14 UTC
Post vids or quote your favorite Robin Williams lines here
In honor of a legendary funnyman.
8 replies
Open
y2kjbk (4846 D(G))
11 Aug 14 UTC
Robin Williams
http://insidemovies.ew.com/2014/08/11/robin-williams-dead-at-63/

RIP. One of my favorite actors/comedians.
20 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
04 Aug 14 UTC
The latest from Gaza
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28635031

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/child-killed-30-hurt-in/1296076.html
447 replies
Open
ssorenn (0 DX)
10 Aug 14 UTC
24 hour , anon, WTA 25-50 pt full press.
Looking for 6 brave souls, who are reliable and will finish what they start....fight to the end.
2 replies
Open
Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang (0 DX)
09 Aug 14 UTC
(+2)
"sounds good"
Is there any worse a reply to receive in Diplomacy?

Should you automatically attack any person who says this to you?
36 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Aug 14 UTC
Robin Williams Found Dead of Possible Suicide at Age 63
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/11/robin-williams-dead-dies_n_5670050.html

One of the most instantly recognizable performers of his generation...what a huge loss. RIP
2 replies
Open
THELEGION (0 DX)
09 Aug 14 UTC
(+2)
my destruction.
Ok just give me a minute I finally got back from work.
83 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
11 Aug 14 UTC
Anyone ever done some online tutoring?
Has anybody tried out sites like instaEDU? $20/hr sounds rather scammy and online reviews are mired by obvious shills so it's hard to get a read on it.
4 replies
Open
kasimax (243 D)
10 Aug 14 UTC
good generic role-playing game system for a fantasy setting?
i'm looking forward to playing a few sessions with friends/relatives, but haven't yet decided what system to use. can somebody recommend one or two systems? i wouldn't want to use more than three dice (only if there's an easy conting method like in fate), but wouldn't like no dice either. yet no other ideas on what the system should cover.
17 replies
Open
tendmote (100 D(B))
06 Aug 14 UTC
(+1)
Any recent converts to Vegetarianism?
Any recent converts to Vegetarianism? How did you make the switch?
180 replies
Open
Elf (201 D)
11 Aug 14 UTC
Replacement player needed
We need a replacement player to play england. Player was banned - Multi. Please have a look:

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=145687
0 replies
Open
MarquisMark (326 D(G))
11 Aug 14 UTC
Looking for Replacement Player
Hey, we're looking for a replacement England player in our "Slow and Low (Stakes)" game. He got banned for multi and is actually in a good position gamewise. This wouldn't be a case of taking over a hopeless CD. Have a look and if you're interested, join in! Cheers!

gameID=145006
0 replies
Open
jimbursch (100 D)
10 Aug 14 UTC
hello webdip developers
I would like to get in touch with other webdip developers. The dev forum is inactive, so I'm hoping to get in touch with other developers here.

4 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
09 Aug 14 UTC
Why are some so-called religious people so anti-humanity?
If you really believe in a higher power why would you support the torture/murder of innocent people ..... maybe this religion idea is not all it is cracked up to be. Maybe religious are the same as the rest of us but just think they are better.
26 replies
Open
century (433 D)
09 Aug 14 UTC
Fail to save command
I often fail to save my commands. Sometime I have to tried several times. Do anyone meet the same problem? Any solution to solve this?
13 replies
Open
ag7433 (927 D(S))
08 Aug 14 UTC
Anyone up for a game of Yesterday I, Murdered?
Combines logical progression, personal events, to end at "murder".
63 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Aug 14 UTC
U of Minn. Trying to Ban Redskins Name/Logo When WSH Plays There Nov. 2
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/university-of-minnesota-wants-redskins-to-wear-throwback-jerseys-at-vikings-game/2014/08/07/d1be02a8-1e57-11e4-ab7b-696c295ddfd1_story.html While the Vikings are having their new stadium built, they're playing in U of Minn's...who, arguing the Washington team name "degrade[s] a race of people,” are seeking that the name be kept off all materials for the game, not used, and that Washington be forced to use its old spear logo instead.
84 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
17 Jul 14 UTC
The ground offensive has begun in Gaza....
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28359582

I'm sure there will be people actually cheering this ....... so sad
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NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
21 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
A thought for the young Israeli soldiers who have lost their lives, young men whose lives have been wasted fighting to protect a Western ideology and to protect Western interests, but living in a region where, as a result of the Israeli and US foreign policies, will never have the freedoms and quality of life they fight so loyally to defend ....... the quality of life we enjoy in both Europe and North America, we should all be grateful that Israel bear the brunt of the ideological/religious clash between East & West, it allows the USA to have huge influence and a nuclear deterrent in the region, Israel always the naive, loyal and enthusiastic servant, just like the lap dog you never had.
Of course Hamas are not the enemy, nor are the Palestinians, just an annoyance and an embarrassment when Israel get a little trigger happy and start shooting up the natives. Netanyahu is to diplomacy what Hitler was to Art.
No, Israel are funded heavily because the US want to keep close tabs on what they call the 'axis of evil'. They cannot afford to not have some influence over the biggest oil reserves in the world, which in the wrong hands could cause turmoil if it were to dry up.
So although I may criticise Netanyahu for being a ignorant brutish thug we should be grateful he is willing to forsake the lives of young Israelis soldiers on the altar of Western Capitalism, because without them you know there would be a UN force in the firing line, with European and US troops coming home in body bags.
Thankfully for us Netanyahu values US dollars and arms more than the lives of young Israeli soldiers and innocent Palestinian families.
Putin33 (111 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
Israel is hardly a servant. Didn't you read about Kerry's complaining about Israel on an open mic? The political class is not pleased with Netanyahu. Israel is not pleased with Obama.

Israel is to the USA what North Korea is to China. A big embarrassment.
Invictus (240 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
(+2)
Oh come on. Even you can't really believe that.
krellin (80 DX)
21 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
Much like Putin is an embarrassment to Russia.
semck83 (229 D(B))
21 Jul 14 UTC
Hey Invictus, just be glad that he's actually admitting NK is an embarrassment now, not a model world citizen whom we should all emulate.
Putin33 (111 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
That would require Invictus taking off his Horseblinders of Hate. Also not that facts matter to Semck but I never claimed was a 'model citizen whom we should all follow'.
Putin33 (111 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
*claimed NK was a model citizen
Invictus (240 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
Yeah, I hate a communist monarchy that starves its people. Sorry I'm not sorry.
Putin33 (111 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
Thanks for missing the point.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
"Israel is to the USA what North Korea is to China. A big embarrassment."

Really? I thought you loved North Korea and China...

I thought you'd be giddy at the idea of us acting like them!

(Not the case, but still, please, continue...)
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
"Thanks for missing the point."

That'd imply you actually had one, Putin.
Putin33 (111 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
I didn't call China an embarrassment you dingbat.
Invictus (240 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
You making the comparison misses the point, Putin33.
Putin33 (111 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
Neither of you bother to read and you both love to pander.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
"Yeah, I hate a communist monarchy that starves its people. Sorry I'm not sorry."

How DARE you not be up for such a system, Invictus!

Don't you know?

War is Peace...perpetual war since 1950!
Ignorance is Strength...don't those skin and bones North Korean kids look strong?
Freedom is Slavery...what could be more free than eternal servitude to the Great Leader!

And Putin's Special 4th Slogan--

Conquest is Good!
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
"I didn't call China an embarrassment you dingbat."

1. Didn't say you did, you once again misread me.

2. Oh, come on...are you tRYING to party like it's 1899?

"Dingbat," really? Yeah, no, people don't talk like that...

Or, to put it another way--

WE ARE NOT AMUSED--HA-RUMPH!
Invictus (240 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
Don't lump me in with this increasingly unhinged obiwanobiwan. I just don't think the Israel-United States relationship is at all comparable to the North Korea-China relationship.
Putin33 (111 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
Then why'd you make a statement about my attitude towards China? I didn't mention my attitude towards China.

""Dingbat," really? "

It fits.
semck83 (229 D(B))
21 Jul 14 UTC
Sorry putin, my memory was that you did. I now see (looking back) that you merely defended almost all of their actions as defensibly the best for their people under the difficult circumstances that were imposed upon them by the rest of the world. That's still not an embarrassment, but you're right that I mischaracterized you as saying they were a model citizen.
Randomizer (722 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-20/israel-gaza-ground-war-puts-maze-of-attack-tunnels-in-its-sights.html

Hamas is making Mexican drug cartels look like worse than amateurs. Considering the cartels have no restrictions on construction materials and equipment, they should have a hundred tunnels under the US Mexico border for smuggling.

A hundred feet down and concrete line makes them harder to detect using conventional means and even harder to destroy since the entire length must be destroyed to prevent rebuilding the entrances.
Putin33 (111 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
If Mexico were under blockade for years I'm sure they'd have better tunnels.
Invictus (240 D)
21 Jul 14 UTC
If the border with Mexico were the length of Gaza's frontiers then it would make sense for the cartels to dig elaborate tunnels. But since it isn't, it's more economical to use other forms of smuggling.
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
22 Jul 14 UTC
This is the most amusing bitch fight on this forum in a long time.
Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang (0 DX)
22 Jul 14 UTC
(+2)
Alright Obi, that was a very long post but I think we are actually narrowing things down to a few key critical points. I'm not going to go into Kantian philosophy or talk about morals, because none of that really applies in this situation. Neither said is majorly concerned with morals or being on the high ground, but with advancing their own side.

Your number one clear issue is with Hamas. You see no future for Hamas, no possibility for how it could change, and no future for it in Gaza-Israeli relations. Your stonewall here effectively makes anything I say mute. You ask for evidence of change and I have repeatedly offered you such evidence:

1) Curbing of rocket fire since 2008, observed and noted by Israel itself. You chalk this up to Hamas repairing its infrastructure, which is certainly is something it has to do after being bombed back to the stone age. I don't know if I would take this as "they are just preparing for another war" so much as "they are trying to restore basic services and housing so people dont die off even more" but you allow for only one possibility and it is that Hamas is only ever concerned with war on Israel. I would implore you to consider that not all of Hamas are raving, bloodthirsty demons sent to destroy the Jewish homeland. That feels like a fair thing to ask.

2) Attempts at a unity government and recognition in the UN. Here is what the President of Hamas committed to with this gesture (http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47649#.U83e2PldV4A):
“President Abbas emphasized that these commitments include recognition of Israel, non-violence, and adherence to previous agreements. President Abbas also reiterated his continued commitment to peace negotiations and to non-violent popular protests.”

3) The attempt to establish calm and maintain ceasefires since 2008. This largely weaves with point 1), but it's important to note that the vast majority of rocket fire since then has not been from Hamas itself but splinter militant groups like the PIJ, and the vast majority of breaks in the ceasefire were perpetuated by Israel in this time (evidence: http://blog.thejerusalemfund.org/2012/12/israeli-ceasefire-violations-in-gaza.html)

Any of these things taken alone, I would agree, they do not amount to much. Taken together they are an obvious effort towards chance and potential reconciliation, or AT THE VERY LEAST, the best efforts we have seen in decades. Even admist the number of wars you have cited, these have been concrete efforts towards some kind of progress. All have been derailed or put off by Israel itself.

As for the Kill All Israelis policy of Hamas. My point of comparing this to the Samson Option from Israel was to compare extremist policies. There are many countries around the world that deal with Israel even though the Samson Option would ensure they'd come under attack or be destroyed by Israel's nuclear arsenal. No one considers this realistic and thus relations and negotiations are allowed to progress. In the world of Diplomacy (ironic considering the site we're on) this is called realpolitik. There's an understanding that some policy is intended for the local voters (using usually extremist language to get people to side with that party) and then there is what a political party actually does and negotiates behind close doors. Consider that the United States wishes to spread democracy and stands for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" yet negotiates and deals with the likes of China and various dictators around the world. As as been evidenced, Hamas has been willing to recognize and work with Israel on moving towards a two-state-solution. This is in direct conflict with their Kill All Israelis policy because it simply is not a clear-eyed, realistic policy to maintain. It is puffery, nothing more.

That said, you tend to focus on Hamas' policies while ignoring many of Israel's. Currently Israel is being run by a government that is more right-wing and more racist than the American Tea Party or the GOP. Israel has numerous policies it enforces against Palestinians and non-Jews which are racist and exclusionary at their core.

Here are a few:
http://adalah.org/eng/Israeli-Discriminatory-Law-Database
http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/New_Discriminatory_Laws.pdf
http://adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf

-The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law bars Israel's subjects from West Bank attaining citizenship, even if they have been born in Israel proper or have relatives there.

-Arab citizens of Israel are not permitted to start settlements on the West Bank or living in already existing settlements if the settlement council doesn't tolerate Arabs. Arab subjects of Israel in West Bank have no rights at all.

-The Israeli government has a long-standing policy of denying state recognition to holy places that aren't Jewish.

-The government spends far less the amount of money per every Jewish student then it does per every Arab Student. Human Rights Watch has found systematic discrimination in the number, quality and condition of the buildings, classroom sizes, provision of teaching resources and government funding.

-University courses in Israel are in Hebrew or English. Arab citizens hold fewer then 60 of Israel's 5000 university faculty positions.

Those are just a few and most inflammatory I could find and know of. These laws and policies are not based in creating a segregation between Israeli Jews and other religions (completing the idea that Israel should be a Jewish state). They are perpetuated by prejudiced and racist sentiments held by Israel's political class.

There's no bigger evidence of this than when Israel purposefully sterilized some 130,000 Ethiopians Jews (source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/). Anti-African immigrant sentiment is riff through Israel's ruling party.

The interior minister, Eli Yishai, stated "this country belongs to us, to the white man,” and "until I can deport them I’ll lock them up to make their lives miserable.”

Moshe Feiglin, a member of Netanyahu's party, has called for Palestinians to be expelled and for Jews to populate Gaza (http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/expel-palestinians-populate-gaza-jews-says-knesset-deputy-speaker), contrary to your previous statements that no one wants such a thing.

Miri Regev, another member of the Likud party, called African-immigrants "a cancer of the body" (http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/expel-palestinians-populate-gaza-jews-says-knesset-deputy-speaker).

Netanyahu himself has overseen the construction of prison camps to hold immigrants indefinitely.

I do not believe that Israel as a whole is racist or prejudiced, just its governing body. And that governing body is the one enacting the military policies we see happening in Gaza. These African immigrants are not even shooting at Israelis. Imagine what sentiments these political members and certainly Netanyahu himselfs holds for the average Gazan, Hamas or no Hamas.

I cite all this because you speak highly of Israel's intent in its efforts against Gaza. Israel's intent, as it says, is to enact pin-point strikes against only Hamas targets. Innocent civilians inadvertently get in the way. We know and have agreed before that Israel understands the importance of good PR and you have to see that policy of intent as what it is. Good PR.

The actual policy Israel enacts in Gaza is more closer to collective punishment, and this stems from the same prejudice and racism that weaves its way through Israel's governing body. Israel wishes to break the Gazan people in hopes that they do what you yourself have wished for; a popular overthrow and rising up of a more acceptable political body. However this cannot occur, as I have stated before, as long as an exterior existential threat exists to Gazans. A battered people cannot rise up against their only lifeline, against the only people who are repairing their infrastructure and keeping the lights on.

The fact is you cannot "wipe-out" Hamas. There will always be some secondary lackey, some brainwashed youth to fill in for the latest member killed. It's funny you mentioned ISIS, because America is learning their lesson well. They are discovering they cannot bomb an extremist ideology out of existence and that the bombing only serves to fuel it:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Pakistan_warns_US_drone_attacks_fuel_0407.html
http://www.examiner.com/article/cia-drone-kills-40-civilians-pakistan-fuels-already-simmering-extremism

ISIS itself is the product of a weakened central Al-Qaeda. What we find again and again is that attempting to destroy these extremist ideologies only tends to produce something more extreme and more powerful in the end, like a hydra. Even if Israel could wipe out all of Hamas with this campaign, it is likely something more violent and dangerous would rise in its place, not something more to Israel's liking.

But back to the collective punishment point. We have seen this already during Operation Brother's Keeper, where IDF soldiers, alongside arresting Hamas officials who were not suspect in the disappearance of the teenagers, were sent into the West Bank to essentially raid and mess up the homes of Palestinians
http://972mag.com/beyond-mission-creep-why-operation-brothers-keeper-isnt-working/92471/
http://972mag.com/looting-by-idf-soldiers-but-on-the-spoil-laid-they-not-their-hand/66191/
The raids actually weakened the PA's legitimacy in the West Bank, as they were seen as openly cooperating with Israeli on the ruination of Palestinian homes. This could very well be the crack that leads to a more militant group rising up and taking control of the West Bank
http://972mag.com/its-time-to-imagine-a-future-without-the-palestinian-authority/92420/

And this collective punishment continues in the bombing raid on Gaza. The pinpoint strikes policy does not follow with the amount of dead Gazans that have resulted, only a fraction of which were members of Hamas or militants in any way. More Gazan children have been killed than any Israel civilian and soldier in the past few years. The high number of deaths, along with the indiscriminate bombing and use of high payload ordnance in high density areas:
http://i.imgur.com/CNeT2N4.png
https://7e8c.https.cdn.softlayer.net/807E8C/origin.theweek.com/img/dir_0122/61117_article_full/an-israeli-air-strikenbspon-gaza-on-july-8.jpg?206
http://d2yhexj5rb8c94.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/styles/article_node_view/public/Israel%20Airstrikes%20on%20Gaza%20_AP%20Photo_0_0.jpg
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/53c73d4becad04cd16f996b6-480/gaza-strip-israeli-air-strike.jpg

points to a policy which is attempting to frighten and harm all Gazans and not just Hamas itself. There is no justification for this kind of bombing, particularly with the varied and highly technological nature of the arsenal available to Israel.


Your analogy about the shooters and hostages in the store is an apt one, but you underplay the situation. It's more like the police have the store surrounded and are not doing anything, just milling about and waiting, talking among themselves. When a shot comes at them from inside the store, they all open fire, riddling the store with bullets, throwing grenades through the windows, hitting anything and everything they can. When the situation is done both the shooters and the hostages are dead and they walk away from the situation feeling they have done their job correctly. No people or police force in the world would consider that a good job, or a proportionate response to the threat they were under.


So, what do I think can be done? I think if Israel was true to their stated intent, that they did not want to harm Gazans and only Hamas, then they would allow for a place for refugees to flee. If Gaza is a war zone then they must allow innocent civilians to get out. Establish a highly restricted and monitored refugee camp outside of Gaza, controlled by the IDF, where women and children and certainly some men could stay and be provided with food, water, and shelter outside the control of Hamas. This would drain the legitimacy of Hamas' aggression and provide safety to the Gazan people. Israel would then be free to pursue a more open and aggressive campaign against Hamas. When the Gazan people do not have to worry about being bombed, they would be able to collectively decide a better way to govern themselves, without fear of reprisal from Hamas. I think this is the best situation outside of any Israel - Hamas negotiations, but it is likely not to happen (and you admit so yourself) because "Israel does not want to". I would chalk that up to Israel's prejudice and racism against Palestinians, but you can make of it what you will.


Now Obi, we've gone back and forth a lot, and as you've said I've provided a lot of evidence to back up my points. Your posts however are free of anything like that and are filled with conjecture and anecdotal points. Your posts are largely how you feel, not the reality on the ground. I would pose a challenge to you in any reply you make:

1) Provide sourced evidence for even some of your claims

2) Search and find for any concession that Israel has made to the Palestinians, Gaza or West Bank, since 2009. Negotiations are not a one way street and for any sort of truce to be successful Israel have to give as well as take. What has Israel done to advance negotiations and the peace process that hasn't been strictly on their terms? What have they offered to give , other than a momentary lapse in bombing, that has been rejected?

Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang (0 DX)
22 Jul 14 UTC
(+1)
My last two points are mainly because I don't think it's worth continuing to have this back and forth as long as your posts get longer while saying less and less. You're continually citing how we get caught in loops as if that is a point for you. The status quo is advantageous to Israel but that does not make it good or right. The same can be said for having your mind set and made before reading and replying to the points and evidence in my posts.
Asking questions for points I've already addressed is some serious hasbara shit and while you can laugh and smile at the suffering of Gazans (And Gaza would not be blocked or, indeed, blockaded if not for Hamas, so we really do go in circles around that one point, lol. :)) I dont particularly find anything funny about any of this.
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
22 Jul 14 UTC
Obi is a dick, I'm glad I'm not reading his bullshit, I must say one of the best things I have done on this site was to mute him ..... happy days.
Theodosius (232 D(S))
22 Jul 14 UTC
(+2)
Well spoken, Chairman.

It might be worthwhile to note here that, back in the day, Yasser Arafat (former Chairman of the PLO) gave up trying to negotiate with Israel because, despite repeated rounds of high-profile US-sponsored negotiation talks, Israel refused to start to negotiate until the PLO gave up all of their cards and had nothing to negotiate with. In the end, it was US pressure against Israel that mainly helped create a place for the people displaced from Israel to have a place to live.

Anything that Obi has said about Hamas could have been once said about the PLO. Yet it was the PLO playing the peace card in the end, not Israel. Israel had no interest in compromise. The PLO did.

There is nothing new under the sun here. Playing hardball. In the end Israel is destroying itself, which is more than just a pity or a tragedy. War is hell and Israel is guaranteeing itself that the next generation of Palestinians will be even more radical.

What Israel should have done, as hard as it may be, is held back and let Hamas throw its rockets. Palestinian authorities would then have been forced from international pressure to work with Israel to dismantle the terrorist threat. Yes, it would be hard, but it would lay the groundwork for a more peaceful coexistance rather than a more radicalized one.

Armchair diplomat, sure, but that's still my 2c's worth.
Putin33 (111 D)
22 Jul 14 UTC
Yes, I remember quite vividly all the people (metaphorically) dancing on the grave of Arafat, claiming he was the main obstacle to peace. Except we all know that he was just their excuse of the moment.

obiwanobiwan (248 D)
22 Jul 14 UTC
"Except we all know that he was just their excuse of the moment."

First of all, Putin--you, more than anyone else, don't get to complain about others making "excuses," when you are quite possibly the most excuse-happy member on this site when it comes to Assad, Russia, North Korea, China, Conquest as Peace, and whole litany of criminals and crimes against humanity.

You were not just a week ago twisting in the wind insisting that pinning MH17 on Russia and pro-Russian separatists was a trick by Ukraine and the West...all while making excuses for Big Bad Vlad and his horrific policy against the LGBT community and anyone that stands in his way.

"Yasser Arafat (former Chairman of the PLO) gave up trying to negotiate with Israel because, despite repeated rounds of high-profile US-sponsored negotiation talks, Israel refused to start to negotiate until the PLO gave up all of their cards and had nothing to negotiate with. In the end, it was US pressure against Israel that mainly helped create a place for the people displaced from Israel to have a place to live.

Anything that Obi has said about Hamas could have been once said about the PLO. Yet it was the PLO playing the peace card in the end, not Israel. Israel had no interest in compromise. The PLO did."

I'd argue that it was the change in PLO leadership that created the climate for reforming their image...

If you'd like to suggest disposing of the whole of Hamas' leadership, by all means, I'm right behind you.

But given how much flak Israel has gotten for the peace talks, I want to quote:

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NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
10 Aug 14 UTC
No quick fix in Iraq say Oblamer
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28725908

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