""Not that I can get into this now but you need to cite this claim because it's central to your posts and I'm pretty positive it's a lie."

Cite what, that weapons were found thrice? I posted on that already, MULTIPLE times"

So it should be exceptionally easy for you to post them again right? I don't think they've appeared in this thread is all. So you can post links to the three separate instances of rockets being hidden in UN schools that didn't turn out to be disproved?

"The group preventing that common ground is Hamas who refuses to negotiate under any terms besides their own. "

"And you're completely ignoring the nature of my claim is that, by fighting an urban war, Hamas makes that urban area a target...meaning that from errant shells (and unless anyone here is going to claim they can shoot with 100% accuracy, I'd suggest putting cynicism aside and accepting that as a possibility in at least some of these cases) to not being sure but shooting anyway because you'd rather keep yourself safe than be sorry, the whole Gaza Strip becomes a target when Hamas refuses to leave urban and populated areas alone."

This isn't true? Just because rockets exist in Gaza does not make all of Gaza a target. And there have been numerous recorded Israeli strikes against apartment buildings where no Hamas targets were. That doesn't jive with the idea that Israel is only going after hamas.

"...because even in instances where there's no Hamas activity--the four boys who were killed on the beach is a good example--there are GOING to be accidents in war...and if you operate out of the entire Strip, then the whole Strip is going to come under fire, "

But that doesn't make sense. How can intentionally targeting something like four people on a beach be an accident?

"
What's more, Hamas doesn't view Israel as a legitimate state, and has vowed a genocide against the Jewish people:"

One of the concessions of the unity government was recognition of Israel has a legitimate state. And once again, exterminating all Jewish people would be impossible. But don't let any of that stop you from repeating this tired talking point.

"If Israel doesn't attack back, Hamas can claim an uncontested victory, and Israeli politicians are on the hot seat. If Israel does fight back, Hamas claims a victory all the same. It's a lose-lose for Israel. "

What exactly would Hamas "uncontested victory" be? They're still surrounded and blockaded by Israel. Nothing you're saying makes any sense

"
And you can very well say "Oh, come on, they haven't the means to carry that out," but there are still Holocaust survivors living in Israel who founded the nation, and both they and much of the rest of its Jewish population do NOT exactly feel like hearing that kind of rhetoric again, period."

Too bad they seem willing to use Holocaust rhetoric against others

http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/141870/israeli-official-calls-for-concentration-camps-in-gaza

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/israeli-army-summarily-executed-fleeing-civilians-southern-gaza

But what would you suggest? Ignore the incoming rockets and terrorists coming out of tunnels? Every rocket they take or destroy is one that won't be fired at Israel. Eventually, they will run out of rockets (assuming the blockade lasts).

(sorry, that was at tendmote)

I mean lets examine obi's belief system here:

1) He admits that Israel's policy in the West Bank is wrong and oppressive
2) He admits that Israel has racist and prejudice internal policies relating to Arabs, people of color, and foreign jews
3) He admits that while Israeli strikes are not "justified" they are "understandable"
4) That every time Israel attacks and strikes, it plays into the hands of Hamas and their supporters

Through all this however, his focus is still purely on Hamas, an organization with an effective military output amounting to bottlerockets in bulk and literally tunneling through the earth under a blockade to capture single soldiers at a time.

This shapes up entirely to be someone who literally cannot see the forest past the tree or who is exceptionally dishonest in what they say and is merely looking to score points or draw every discussion to a standstill.

"But what would you suggest? Ignore the incoming rockets and terrorists coming out of tunnels? Every rocket they take or destroy is one that won't be fired at Israel. Eventually, they will run out of rockets (assuming the blockade lasts)."

Actually no. Most of the Qassam rockets are metal tubes with sugar and potassium nitrate as a propellant. Militants in Gaza can literally use urine for half the ingredients. So the rockets aren't going to stop. The Iron Dome has largely neutralized this problem anyway, and much of the use of air raid sirens and bomb shelters in Israel are for psychological impact and not actually mitigating civilian death.

The only recorded successful instance of rocket firing tampering down was when Israel worked with Hamas to crack down on the rocket fire. Hamas stopped all their rocket firing completely and what was left was small individual rockets fired by rogue militant groups for something like four to five months:

http://i.imgur.com/oPnLW61.jpg

This was only interrupted when Israel launched Cast Lead.

Which, btw, would be one among many times when Israel has launched a military operation exactly when progress towards peace was being made with Gaza

@KingCyrus I don't actually have a solution to suggest. But my impression is that Israel is pretty much mindlessly lashing out because they don't have a solution either.

If the blockade lasts, then there won't be rockets coming from Gaza, because there also won't be a Gaza, and then there will be something coming from somewhere else. These attacks will not make Israel safer. I don't know what will, or if anything really can.

In the meantime, it continues, and becomes more and more disproportionate.

Bad news isn't always wrong... but "they've got to do something." Well, really? All of this worse than doing nothing. I don't know what would be better.

Send in the UN, force Israelis back to the 1967 borders and stop them bulldozing and blowing up the houses and settlements they will need to vacate

Yes, send in the UN -- uhh, I mean, the United States and friends -- to compete with the IDF. If you want Israel to take over the world, send the UN in to fight.

@NigeeBaby @bo_sox48 I agree that Israel should be pressured to stop the settlements.

HOWEVER,

1) there would still be rockets fired from Gaza, and
2) attacking Gaza still would *not* solve the rockets problem.

The settlements proposal, even if implemented, would do nothing to solve what's happening to, and from, Gaza.

There's a lot more to this than settlements. Besides, I was being sarcastic, because Nigee apparently thinks that reasonably militarized nations like Israel or others like Russia or North Korea or Iran are even remotely afraid of the UN "peacekeeping" forces.

"militarized nations like Israel or others like Russia or North Korea or Iran are even remotely afraid of the UN "peacekeeping" forces."
you just don't get the point, it's not about being afraid of the UN, it's more about abiding by International Law and to prevent the slaughter of the innocents.
The USA would find it a lot harder to rush through an urgent supply of ammo to the Israelis if those arms were being used against a UN peace-keeping force.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/rockets-found-in-unrwa-school-for-third-time/

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rockets-found-at-UNRWA-school-for-third-time-369358 "The incident came hours after UNRWA reported that for the third time in two weeks, it found that weapons had been stored in one of its Gaza schools."

For starters.

"This isn't true? Just because rockets exist in Gaza does not make all of Gaza a target."

That is NOT why I just said Gaza is a target, I said all of Gaza is a target because Hamas operates in and fires out of all of Gaza. And you didn't even admit to the possibility of errant strikes...I suppose you can fire advanced weapons with 100% accuracy, can you?

"But that doesn't make sense. How can intentionally targeting something like four people on a beach be an accident?"

Prove to me they did it on purpose--that is, that they fired on them as children, that the IDF knew they were children, said "Let's kill those children," cackled with all the Saturday morning cartoon glee you seem to ascribe to an entire people as you demonize them...because that's so very compassionate and kind.

"One of the concessions of the unity government was recognition of Israel has a legitimate state. And once again, exterminating all Jewish people would be impossible. But don't let any of that stop you from repeating this tired talking point."

I won't, as:

1. Doesn't mean they're not trying to kill Jews,
2. Doesn't mean they don't say, repeatedly, they wish to kill Jews,
3. Doesn't mean that if they had the ability they wouldn't kill Jews,
4. Hamas has done a phenomenal job ignoring other edicts by the unity government, so you'll forgive me not believing their word when they go against the decisions of their own alleged partners,

And

5. I'm glad you can be so very flippant and care so little about people who preach hate and genocidal intent towards Jews.

Palestinians under attack, THAT is a tragedy...

But if it's the Jews facing someone who seeks to kill them, works to kill them, and says openly and repeatedly they would love to see Jews wiped from the Earth, THAT is acceptable, and THAT is the group I shouldn't just sympathize, but pull for?

Sickening.

And I put that to all ye Hamas supporters--

WHY is it OK to (rightly) decry Israeli right-wing nuts who are anti-Palestinian, but it's perfectly OK to support a group that repeatedly has called for the genocide of the Jewish people?

See, it's doing things like THAT that get the charges of Antisemitism going...

Not that you're anti-Israel--you can be anti-Israel without being Antisemitic--but that you're actively supporting and rooting for a group that's not just openly Antisemitic but genocidally-minded at that.

See, many Jews...we kinda sorta maybe take issue with that...with treating a group who says those things about Jews as if they're plucky underdogs to be supported.

We don't want support for people who say such things as "exterminate Jews to the last one," you see.

So, tell me again how supporting a group who says that ISN'T Antisemitic...

You support a government whose leaders are on record wanting to exterminate Palestinians.

Play the anti-semitic card somewhere else.

"WHY is it OK to (rightly) decry Israeli right-wing nuts who are anti-Palestinian"

Rightly? You haven't decried them once. Nor have you condemned any of Israeli atrocities. In fact, you've defended them. Because the only lives you care about are Jewish lives. Everybody else doesn't matter.

obi-goebbels posted: "WHY is it OK to (rightly) decry Israeli right-wing nuts who are anti-Palestinian, but it's perfectly OK to support a group that repeatedly has called for the genocide of the Jewish people?"

I decry those ACTUALLY committing genocide, the Israelis. You have been defending this genocide tirelessly with nothing except propaganda, hence your new nickname.

I don't support Hamas at all, but considering that the Palestinian areas that Israel isn't attacking are liable to be confiscated, I don't see how Israel can be supported in this either. Israel has less "no right to exist" rhetoric, but considering it's actions, it doesn't really need the rhetoric.

"Rightly? You haven't decried them once."

Yes I have. Repeatedly.

I REPEATEDLY said the right-wing nuts who burned that Palestinian boy, for example, were sick criminals and a disgrace.

"Play the anti-semitic card somewhere else."

But it works so well with you, Putin, when you actively support a group that repeatedly and unflinchingly says they're pro-genocide when it comes to the Jews.

See, supporting such a group and, by extension, their beliefs and ideologies?

That's kinda sorta Antisemitism 101.

"Because the only lives you care about are Jewish lives. Everybody else doesn't matter."

Which is of course why you and I had a hundred-post-long debate over what to do were an allied city like London to be bombed...wherein I expressed just how deeply I would not just want but demand my government give them aid and assistance, militarily and otherwise.

And as great as Britain is...not exactly known for having millions upon millions of Jews living there currently.

But please, go on...

"But it works so well with you, Putin, when you actively support a group that repeatedly and unflinchingly says they're pro-genocide when it comes to the Jews."

You support a government that not only is unflinchingly pro-genocide when it comes to Palestinians but actively works to eliminate them.

But that's ok because Arabs don't count.

"Which is of course why you and I had a hundred-post-long debate over what to do were an allied city like London to be bombed."

Yeah you did this in the context of wanting to exterminate Iranians.

Nice guy.

"I don't support Hamas at all, but considering that the Palestinian areas that Israel isn't attacking are liable to be confiscated, I don't see how Israel can be supported in this either."

And while I do support Israel, tedmote, I CAN respect that view, too...

I can see completely why someone would say that neither side is worth supporting in this war, that it's bad vs. bad.

What I again take issue with are people like Putin and Chairman pretending the group they advocate and back isn't Antisemitic and isn't genocidally-minded and that it's perfectly OK to support what they say and do regarding Jews.

"I REPEATEDLY said the right-wing nuts who burned that Palestinian boy"

You've steadfastly ignored all the genocidal rhetoric coming out of mainstream Israelis mouths and have defended every single other atrocity committed by Israel, including the indiscriminate shelling and bombing of schools.

"it's perfectly OK to support what they say and do regarding Jews."

But it's perfectly ok to kill Palestinian children because some rockets were found in some abandoned building somewhere.

Got it.

You're such a humanitarian.

"You support a government that not only is unflinchingly pro-genocide when it comes to Palestinians but actively works to eliminate them."

Way to deflect away from the point of your supporting a pro-genocide group yourself.

What's the matter, don't have a defense for supporting people who'd like to exterminate millions and millions of Jews?

Speaking of "exterminating"...

"Yeah you did this in the context of wanting to exterminate Iranians."

That isn't what I said, I said repeatedly that's not what I said, and you conveniently fail to mention the entire context of this--that I agreed with Hillary Clinton that were Iran to attack a US ally like Israel with devastating force that it, too, should be met with devastating force.

Far cry from that and me saying I'd like to get the furnaces going...

...though you seem to have no problem with Hamas taking that stance where Jews are concerned...funny how that works...

"You've steadfastly ignored all the genocidal rhetoric coming out of mainstream Israelis mouths and have defended every single other atrocity committed by Israel, including the indiscriminate shelling and bombing of schools."

I condemned their actions in the West bank, how is that "defend[ing] every single other atrocity committed by Israel?"

Sorry.

So, is this thread about "The latest from Gaza" or is it about who is the biggest asshole?

I see the word "you" in almost every sentence, so probably the biggest asshole is "you", but which "you" is it?

No, you said that all nuclear attacks are the same, the context for nuclear attacks are all the same, and that sympathy genocides are permissible. Hilariously, in the same breath you also said that nuclear attacks are so bad precisely because they start sympathy genocides. And then you went on to produce excuses for the incineration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

"But it's perfectly ok to kill Palestinian children because some rockets were found in some abandoned building somewhere."

Not what I said at all...and you know, I find it cute that you STILL don't have a problem backing a group that preaches genocide towards the Jews...

"You're such a humanitarian."

Ditto--genocide and conquest are perfectly fine in your book...just as long as it's the right people getting killed and a group you support.

Then again, as you're fan of Stalin, I guess murderous double standards shouldn't come as a surprise (Stalin was of course well-known for being so humanitarian...)