+1 Abge.

erist....That's ALWAYS the answer, isn't it. "Oh...it's only a SMALL part of government expednitures....so we should just ignore the waste there..."

Answer the point I made, or the discussion will discontinue. YOU attacked my argument. I made a reply to your dissent. So now you answer my reply in a manner that addressed the issue I brought up - that's how the game is played. You side-stepped the issue.

erist - I admitted my mistake. I saw a cart full of booze and I saw a guy swipe his EBT card. If I missed the OTHER payment, my mistake. I admit it.

I could really care less about your demographics or your experience. the fact remains there is fraud and abuse in the system, and good little liberals like you will *always* defend the system (it's where your paycheck comes from) and fight the inclusion of *reasonable* arrangements to stop abuse -- such as drug and alcohol testing.

"Your talk is typical privileged posturing..." You don't know JACK about who I am, where I came from, what situations my family has been though in the past, my friend. I would recommend YOU get off your high horse...

Whatever will I do if the discussion discontinues? I won't be able to stand it. (I've sworn off arguing on the internet anyway, the only reason I'm here is that I'm waiting for the turn to advance in the SoW game.)

Like I said, your premise is wrong. Your conclusions following from those premises are wrong. And the whole thing is a smokescreen for basic welfare queen stereotyping, deserving vs undeserving poor, making structural outcomes of a socioeconomic system into debates around personal behavior, etc.

Get back to me when you are drug testing CEOs based on the millions they are getting in government subsidies and locking people up 25 to life for opening up offshore ban accounts in an effort to be tough on crime, ya?

erist, stop You know there is abuse to the welfare system, and to ignore it or say it is not happening, does not mean itis not happening.

I am WELL aware of what poverty is, as I grew up in Appalachia (Eastern kentucky, about 6 miles from the Virginia line) so you can run that rehearsed line out to krellin if you like, but I know for a fact it does happen, and a lot.

Sure it happens. All the time. The way I see it it's a tiny form of misplaced resistance to the whole system that created that poverty in the first place. And it's such a tiny part of government expenditures that it's silly to focus on. The government contractors making millions to deliver ice that's coated in the bodily fluids of their dead friends - that's abuse I can get behind stopping

--

to Krellin: I ain't a liberal Jack. I think Obama is an imperialist warmonger/capitalist tool. The extent of my (libertarian) socialism and anti-nationalism would make your head spin and demand that I be deported as a traitor. I'm much more concerned about fraud and abuse that are built into the system - like the fact that one person can be worth as much as 15 million other human beings, like the fact that there are more vacant houses in the US than homeless people because of the fiction of private property, etc than I am in getting into a debate about how we could save a few million bucks on the backs of those terrible poor people that are stealing the rich people's rightful money with the help of the government and blowing it on 40s and blunts. I don't even believe in private property, you won't get very far in a debate around the minutiae of welfare policy with me on some sort of idealistic level. If we are talking about practical ways to save some scratch, I could suggest about 2,001 that have nothing to do without further making it a crime to be poor in this country.

For the recrod, I am not saying stop welfare. I am well aware lots of people NEED it, but it can not be a bleeping lifestyle, it has to be a bridge to something better.

And for the record, I hate our entire stinking government. I puke in my mouth if I think about it for longer than 10 minutes.

Being a poor is not a crime. Having no desire to better than poor is though, at least in a country like America.

"I'm much more concerned about fraud and abuse that are built into the system..."

funny...when I mention examples of the fraud and abuse built in to the system, you brush it off as irrelevant...You pretend to want to have a grandiose discussion on the same topic (as opposed to the minutia...)...then start the discussion.

But your introduction of yourself into the topic was to suggest that I am wrong about the OBVIOUS abuses in the system that anyone with a shred of integrity knows exists. You then gave us some whining emotional diatribe (which I did not read to comprehend) about how you were a social worker...at which point I fell asleep and skipped down the page....but in general, you attacked me for pointing about abuse in the system.

I'll say this: If you want to stop wasting money, you stop it WHEREVER you find it. If you want to create a system and a culture where abuse is NOT the norm, then you eliminate the fraud and abuse where it is MOST obvious - at the cash register. Make it known on the consumer level that fraud and abuse is no longer tolerated, and then maybe the millions that are currently abusing the system in the household will demand it be cleaned up in the administrative offices - becuase if they can't buy their booze and cigs, then they sure as hell wont' put up with politicians dippin' in to the coffers.

This is the concept of grass roots efforts....and they work.

Alright, I am done playing the role of leftist troll to carve out more space for reasonable arguments against your basically insane ones Krellin. You can go back to misunderstanding Laffer curves, etc now.

Enlighten me....oh....I see, all you can do is throw insults and deny reality.

But you are correct -- you are a leftist troll.

I was on food stamps briefly. Krellin is full of shit. I oppose drug testing for "welfare recipients" because it's singling the poor out when the rich don't get drug tested for all their subsidies and government payouts. We should drug test the bankers who get bailouts many many many times over the paltry sum "welfare recipients" receive. Furthermore many people who have drug issues are also homeless or otherwise very poor, so that means you're creating a large class of starving people.
But I'm not surprised people who live in suburbia support such an idea.

Erist's comment at 1:17 Pm said all that needs to be said. Krellin & co are destroyed. Nothing to see here.

"
I am WELL aware of what poverty is, as I grew up in Appalachia (Eastern kentucky, about 6 miles from the Virginia line) so you can run that rehearsed line out to krellin if you like, but I know for a fact it does happen, and a lot. "

What is with your pathological need to find excuses to hate people who have less than you?

You sociopaths whine about "class warfare". Stressedlines & Krellin exemplify class warfare.

You are right Putin. We should blood test the bankers and execs of companies that received payouts... Oh wait! Most companies require drug tests for employment of *everyone* nowadays. So that is already happening. GOTCHA!

Seriously, why not drug test those on welfare. You say it's because they abuse drugs? Where the fuck are they getting the money for the drugs?

You think CEOs high on cocaine really enforce the rules on themselves and their cronies? The government didn't impose a random drug test on them in order for them to get their bailouts.

"Where the fuck are they getting the money for the drugs? "

Loans. Family. Wherever they can get it. You really have had a posh life of privilege, haven't you? You haven't a fucking clue.

"Seriously, why not drug test those on welfare. You say it's because they abuse drugs? Where the fuck are they getting the money for "

You're treating all people in poverty like criminals, that's why.

Is there any more reactionary, thuggish class than the upper middle class? The super rich don't even appear to be this obtuse and ghoulish half the time.

Draugnar, what do you do with children of parents who fail the drug tests. Kill them?

How about we drug test all you high as fuck potheads who want student loans. That'd be great.

"How about we drug test all you high as fuck potheads who want student loans."

No one in this conversation is even in college, so not quite sure who this is addressed to...

I had to take a drug test for every one of my jobs. Why is this different?

1 - Florida did this. It was a complete waste of money and only 2.5% cases tested positive. This with a population which has a 9% drug use rate.

2 - The state can't order tests of people's bodily fluids for no reason. If that's not a violation of the 4th amendment, nothing is.

3 - The fact that private employers get away with imposing this kind of violation of privacy is not a rationale for the government doing this to be people on disability benefits, who already live on subsistence and may even have children to feed. Private employers get away with a hell of a lot that government cannot. This isn't a contract for employment, this is people on disability & unemployment trying to get what is owed them.

My birth mother lives on disability benefits due to mental illness. She gets $100 spending money per month and is on food stamps. She is on section 8 housing. She also takes a hell of a lot of medication. What if this drug test turns up positive? You'll throw her on the street.

Shocking how callous so-called fucking "liberals" are on here.

1 - Do you have a source for this?

2 - It's not for no reason; they're receiving money...

3 - I fail to see the difference. People with jobs have children to feed, too. What exactly is "owed" to them?

"What if this drug test turns up positive? You'll throw her on the street."

Pretty sure I didn't say that. Of course, you've never been one to let what someone says prevent you from accusing them of something horrible.

Really so what happens in case of a positive case? The point is they are deprived of any benefits. So yes this will happen. Sorry you don't like to face up to the implications of your asinine policy proscription.

As for a source, here: It's been all over the news, but let's pretend like it hasn't.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/us/no-savings-found-in-florida-welfare-drug-tests.html

"It's not for no reason; they're receiving money..."

You have *no reason* to suspect welfare recipients of being high on drugs. That's a suspiciousness search. Usually such things are decried by self-proclaimed liberals. Not you.

" People with jobs have children to feed, too."

People on disability have no where else to turn and drug tests for employment require a consent form. If they don't get basic assistance, what the fuck do you expect them to do?

Usually the rationale behind employee drug tests is workplace safety. What heavy machinery are welfare recipients using?

"What heavy machinery are welfare recipients using?"

People commit violent crimes while on drugs all the time...

"...resulted in no direct savings, snared few drug users and had no effect on the number of applications, according to recently released state data."

OK, so maybe it won't save money, but according to this, it really didn't do anything negative, either. So, why are you so upset?

"People on disability have no where else to turn and drug tests for employment require a consent form. If they don't get basic assistance, what the fuck do you expect them to do?"

I expect them to stop using drugs or get their money from somewhere else. State-sponsored drug addiction is not acceptable.