Thank you Albert Santosh Einstein, but I was making sense all along.

@redhouse: ...no, because at that point we've actually metagamed. Just because we used a medium that was then covered up doesn't matter. We could have arranged the same thing via PM, should we ban the private messaging system as well?

"- funny, I thought I did address that. Anyway I don't agree with that rule, btw."

Maybe I missed it, and if so, I do apologize. What did you say in addressing it?

"- there are a lot of very young players here. And not everyone has your advanced understanding of internets."

I'm twenty, so I'm almost certainly one of the younger ones on the site. As for advanced understanding, though I appreciate the compliment, I wouldn't say that knowing that pictures on the Internet can be edited is especially esoteric knowledge, and once that knowledge is present in the individual, the failure to apply it to a screenshot of an alleged Diplomacy communique is squarely a failure of the individual.

A mod needs to clarify if they have access to messages sent in a game. I suppose admins do, but do mods investigating a game to look into metagaming look at PMs between those countries?

So, saying, I just sent you a message that I posted on <this URL>, take a look! And then proposing something illegal on that message can be a real problem, and constitutes a reason to ban external links in press.

You're completely misapplying the context of that rule. All that rule states is you can't ally with somebody because they are your friend or relative or for personal favor.

"This is known as metagaming and is against the rules because it gives an unfair advantage to those involved."

What you need to do is prove without a doubt how sending screenshots puts somebody at an unfair advantage. It's been proven that screenshots can be falsified, therefore, they are essentially equal to that of copy-pasted press.

^exactly santosh. Thanks for joining my side of the debate. That's how obviously stupid these URLs are.

lol. Keep the personal insults coming, I couldn't care less, and they just make you sound ridiculous. Your original claim was sending screenshots of press was illegal and metagaming. I stand by my statement that it is not. Subsequently you posted a scenario where messages could be hidden from a moderator through external links. This I agree with. That's all I've said.

No, again, it does not. By the same token, we should ban the private messaging system, because it could be used to violate the rules. The fact is that we already *have* a rule against metagaming which *covers this exact offense.* The fact that this behavior is illegal *explicitly prohibits that use of a screenshot.* It should not follow that because someone could break a rule in that way that therefore the function should be banned altogether.

This is akin to mandating amputation of hands because someone could use their hands to steal. It's ludicrous.

@PE
"no, because it doesn't take very long to fake them at all."

- I would think in a 5 or 10 minute phase the time taken to make a fake (or not) would be telling.

The point I've made from the beginning santosh, is that if the mods would allow these files, they'd be opening pandoras box. You could send pictures of having your moves saved and readied just before the deadline. Then, if the other side monitors whether the green check mark of the allied player stayed green just until the end of phase, he'd have an unfair sense of security in his alliance, especially if they'd do this continuously and successfully throughout the game.

We.don't.want.to.go.there.

That's how simple it is. No more URLs, this is and should be a TEXT-BASED GAME. It's not rocket science to see that we'd be going into what I've called in the very beginning of this thread "ADMINISTRATIVE HELL" if we allow for this kind of thing.

Compared to the enormous time burden (by live game standards) that even making the screenshot would put on someone in the first place, the additional time it would take to go to the website santosh cited on the first page and type the changes would be miniscule. Further, in live games, the time constraints make even doctoring press in a convincing way very difficult due to time constraints. In a live game both practices are more telling - this isn't a strike against screenshots specifically, but instead against doctoring anything.

It's iffy territory PE. When catching an offense is difficult, if it's problematic enough, you might have to broaden the scope a little bit and take out a channel that's used to carry it out.

I hate using analogies, but forgive me for this one - killing someone in an accident is illegal, but we make drunk driving illegal too, because it's likely you'll end up killing someone.

redhouse: and the pictures of the moves COULD BE FAKE. That's how simple it is.

PE: you wouldn't want the pictures to be there to begin with. THAT'S how simple it is.

redhouse - you have given me a great idea! I'm going to setup live video feeds between me and my ally buddies! Wahoo, there's no stopping the fiedler express now!

santosh: Valid; in that case, I want to actually see instances of this hypothetical happening. In situations like those, you do not ban something without empirical evidence demonstrating the need to enact the ban. To this point, we have not a shred of evidence that this is actually happening, and thus that it merits a ban on screenshots.

As PE said, it's easy to fake screenshots, I could do it for a live game if I wanted to , pretty effortlessly. The fact that they can be faked, is or should become a matter of common knowledge. Per se, I don't think sharing screenshots of your press is illegal or meta-gaming.

thats diploming LIKE A BOSS :D)))))

Who's the best diplomat NOW? Huh? HUH?

redhouse - Why not?

fiedler - Do you mind explaining that a little more? Live video feeds?

"To this point, we have not a shred of evidence that this is actually happening, and thus that it merits a ban on screenshots."

No you don't. What if we suspect life on Mars, but have good reasons to believe it's innocent. Are we going to wait for an Earthling to kill a Martian before we enact a law that forbids the killing of Martians? No, a good administrator / moderator prevents bad things from happening rather than waiting for all sorts of stupid scenarios and then making a rule.

Obviously, imgur files ARE already illegal and should be explicitly mentioned on the rules page that, without even needing additional rules, they are part of the natural examples of meta-gaming.

I take the fifth :)

I'm sure a clever dude like you can figure it out.

'To this point, we have not a shred of evidence that this is actually happening, and thus that it merits a ban on screenshots.' Absolutely, I agree. As I said, 'if it's problematic enough'. Which isn't the situation now.

redhouse, I recommend you take a break and calm yourself down, then return and read the counter-arguments in this thread. You do seem angry and completely uninterested in other points of view. If you're not interested, and all you want is to tell us how right you are, than I'll get out of your thread and let you march on towards justice and glory.

Here's another scenario. Let me know if this is cheating.

I point a webcam at my computer and give someone a link to see it. I then show them the message. Alternatively, I could be playing the game in the same room as somebody (obviously we didn't plan on allying together but it's naturally come to a point where I need the other person's help). Can they walk over to see my screen?

I'm just going to nebulously say that this is all 'against the spirit of the game' and should be strongly discouraged (by mods or otherwise)

@Vaft, alright, but I simply don't see the room for interpretation here. This is a game based on textual communication and a playing board. The spirit and the letter of the rules clearly stipulate that you should not mix "what is outside the game" with "what is inside the game". The imgur URLs are outside the game, the text messages being sent to and fro are inside. How is this even a topic of debate? I'm talking about rule number 2 mind you, not rule number 3. My thesis is that sending URLs is in violation of rule number 2, not 3.

^ Exactly Yonni

Exactly, Yonni. You demonstrate how obviously obviously obviously we are discussing a variant to metagaming. Thank you.

redhouse I sent you a PM

redhouse - what is your analogy even saying? Killing is bad as it is. By comparing the screenshot to killing, you're assuming it is accepted that a screenshot is bad. As this thread VERY clearly demonstrates, it is not.

fiedler - I actually can't... your statement about "video feeds" is incredibly vague. And regardless, I feel like I could be logically consistent in wanting to ban whatever nebulous evil "video feeds" you're citing without extending it to screenshots - and I won't know until you explain.

Yonni - For the first example, while a video feed could also be faked, I don't believe the scenarios are analogous, as the time and expertise it takes to fake a live video feed compared to a screenshot is enormously different, and thus that one could logically support a ban on such practices without also banning screenshots. (fiedler - is this what you were referencing?)

Regarding the second example, I'm not understanding it. Is the other player playing in the same game as you?