I fail to see how the fact that the death penalty is allegedly difficult to implement, which I don't even believe, but assuming this is true, makes up for the fact that the OT called for the death penalty on so many different "crimes" anyway. I guess it's more moral to round up gays and "fake" virgins and put them on death row then go forward with the executions?

Putin. The draconian measures of the Old Testament (= the old agreement) were there to show how much God hates sin, how it drives a wedge that separates us from a perfect God. The old deal was that if man obeyed the law, he could still be saved from our initial choice to sin--both our own personal choice, and our race's choice. But--as Jesus said so clearly, no one is truly good except God--at least, not good enough to bridge the gap that sin caused between us and God.

@ Putin - That's the point I'm trying to make.
As long as someone concedes that yeah, being a disrespectful child to your parents is not a capital offense, even theoretically, they aren't following scriptures as an instruction manual, and thus can't be telling me to use it thus either.

When you're ready for the new deal, you can find it in 1 John, in each of the four gospels, in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians... but you won't understand unless you are guided by the Spirit of God. That's not a particular church, but it's not all wishy-washy "all faiths are paths to God" either. It's the one true living God, the creator and rescuer of his people.

He's the God of all people who want to come to him. He paid the price to make up for what we couldn't do.

*rolls eyes* I know Mujus can't see this, because in my annoyance at his condescending, sanctimonious manner, I disagreed with him too vehemently. But I don't even understand why this is desirable? Why is it that I would want to devote living my life wholly and completely to God? What good does it do God? Why do I need to understand or accept him? Why does he need worship? Why do I need to go to him for forgiveness and salvation? What does it matter if I don't believe? I just, I don't understand why he cares at all? Why does sin matter in the end? I mean, doing bad things is a bad thing, I'm not disputing that, and I'm not arguing you shouldn't try to minimize the harm you do others, that's not the question. The question is, why does it matter to Him? Surely so long as I've made amends with the people I've hurt and earned THEIR forgiveness, whether or not God forgives me that, is immaterial. I mean, it's none of his concern right? If it is, why is it?

"The draconian measures of the Old Testament (= the old agreement) were there to show how much God hates sin, how it drives a wedge that separates us from a perfect God"

So a god that calls for the mass murder of the Midianites and the enslavement of young virgin girls is "perfect", in your view?

Do you actually agree that all of the things which the OT claims to be sins are sins? It seems to me that your book is woefully inadequate in providing any kind of useful moral instruction. It's entirely based on the arbitrary and subjective whims of god, whims that include the sanctioning of so-called "sins" that are condemned elsewhere. It's so subjective a "new deal" even has to be created which changes a bunch of the laws.

Pity about the Midianites, I always liked Balaam.

Also, unrelated question, why is it everyone says atheists are smug, but no one bats an eye at the "When you're ready for Jesus' love, you'll understand" crowd?

Muju's is as smug as they come

Deut 17:4 -When it is told to you, you must listen and carefully interrogate [the witnesses]. If the accusation is established to be true, and this revolting practice has been done in Israel,
Deut 17:6
The accused shall be put to death only through the testimony of two or three witnesses. He shall not be put to death through the testimony of one witness.
Deut 17:7
The hand of the witness shall be against him first to put him to death, and only then shall the hand of all the other people [be set against him]. You shall thus rid yourselves of evil.
Deut 17:8
If you are unable to reach a decision in a case involving capital punishment, litigation, leprous marks, [or any other case] where there is a dispute in your territorial courts, then you must set out and go up to the place that God your Lord shall choose
Deut 17:9
You must approach the Levitical priests [and other members of] the supreme court that exists at the time. When you make inquiry, they will declare to you a legal decision.
Deut 17:10
Since this decision comes from the place that God shall choose, you must do as they tell you, carefully following their every decision.

There are your references btw, I guess the rest is rabbinical interpretation, but Im almost positive it is stipulated (and wikipedia confirmed) that the person needs to be warned of the crime. I just cant find it.

yup lenient interpretation of the talmud apologies for my mistake

At least we agree about that.

For what it's worth SantaClausowitz, I'm not arguing against most religious people. I'm not trying to dissuade you from your beliefs, (they kinda got caught in the crossfire there, sorry), and I'm not saying that your religion makes you a violent person, or is even a violent religion. I just don't like people telling me that the bible is some kind of manual for living my life. It's tantamount to telling me I'm living my life wrong. And I'm sorry but I don't think that's anyone else's determination to make, not even God's.

Well if it makes you feel better, under jewish law (from the talmud) you dont need to believe or follow it anyway as long as you follow 7 laws of noah, which unfortunately still include homosexuality, but other than that they are even liberal according to modern standards.

I don't see how having strict rules around stoning someone to death makes it any better.

To any Christians....
Before I believe in Jesus I need to believe in the Judaic/Christian God,
Before I believe in that God I need to believe in the bible,
Before I believe the bible I need to think faith is a good thing,
Before I think faith is a good thing I need to believe that the supernatural exists.

So Mujus and any other Christians out there - I have sincerely been searching for evidence of a God for 41 years so this is a genuine request. What good reason is there to think that there is anything supernatural out there?

Let me caveat this by saying if the only conclusive evidence of God/Supernatural comes from personal revelation (i.e. non-transferable or translatable information), then there's not much of a place to go with this... just pray that your God revels himself to me... until that day I'll keep him in the pretend category.

Thanks for any guidance.

and blasphemy, I take it back, i guess its still kind of medieval.

That being said though, people like mujus who make up messiahs willy nilly are probably more in danger of that than you are

I have to say, the book of Acts is a weird book, and it kinda makes the early christian church look a little like a mix between a cult, and all those people from Life of Brian. It even mentions two other people who developed followings around them like Jesus did, Theudas and Judas the Galilean. It's just, bizarre.

Superboy, you're close. Here's a whole chapter on faith: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=11&v=1&t=NLT But... are you asking for a natural proof that the supernatural exists?? And since you ask, I will pray tonight that God reveals himself to you.

I was raised in a church but didn't even start to come to know God until I asked him, really asked him to help me. Then I accepted his gift of the death of his son, Jesus, for the payment of my sins. And at that point and others throughout my life I experienced evidences of how real he is, but you must seek, not object! Ask and you shall receive; seek and you shall find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Mujus - I appreciate the link, but I've read the bible so none of those quotes are new to me. A person would have to have an amazing amount of faith to believe the supernatural claims that are in that book. Faith (believing in something without evidence) is something I find abhorrent and evil - Any divine being I would eventually believe in (worship is a whole 'nother discussion) would feel the same way about faith. As long as I have examined faith, I can't find any redeeming value in it and certainly don't see how it's any path to truth.

Thanks for spending the energy in prayer for me, and a revelation could change my mind, but any God that promotes faith is evil in my book.

Just out of interest Mujus, do you believe in the power of prayer? However, if god has some divine plan, then praying for someone is either futile or redundant.

Largeham, aha! The question of predestination. Many Christian theologians wrestle with this question, but but in my opinion, this question is answered in Romans 8:29-30 (NLT) where God's actions are listed in a specific order: 29 "For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory."

So he knew in advance all those who would choose him, so he chose them to be like Jesus, then he called them to come to him, then he gave them right standing with him (declared them to be righteous), then he glorified them. Again, he chose those and prepared a bright future for all those who he knew in advance would choose him.

And now the question of prayer: God asks us to pray for the details of our needs. Jesus prayed for his friends. Prayer is an exercise in communication with God, and answered prayer strengthens the relationship. Check out John 17, Jesus' prayer for his disciples/believers/followers. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Jhn&c=17&v=1&t=NLT

Omniscience and free action are incompatible. Since god supposedly knows all actions in advance, people cannot do otherwise than what is known. Being unable to do what is contrary to what is known makes them unfree. Furthermore since god supposedly knows what he will do in advance, he is not a free agent either, nor is he 'omnipotent'.

@ Putin

Don't quite follow your logic. Why would a God knowing what my actions would be in advance stop my actions from being free? They are still my actions, decided by me and carried out for reasons of my own.

Can you act contrary to what is known? For example, if god knows you are going to reply to my post beforehand, do you have the ability to do otherwise? The truth of you replying was established before it ever occurred, and therefore you are bound by logic to do it, you cannot do otherwise. The only way free action is possible is if you can act in a multiplicity of ways, that your action isn't determined before hand. The fact that people do not know what that determination is and thus have the illusion of choice is not any consolation. They still do not have freedom to act contrary to what is known beforehand. The only logically permissible actions are those known by the deity.

@Putin - On the issue of freewill, isn't the bottom line here who is making the decision to take the action? If I'm making the decision I have freewill... it doesn't matter who or what knows the action I'm going to take as long as I make the decision. Anyone who is aware of the results of my decision before I make it is not imposing that on me, just observing what I do/did/will do. I hope you can see what I'm getting at, it takes a bit of a holistic perception of time... I don't believe any such creature exists, just highlighting the difference between the agent making the decision and the agent observing the decision (regardless of when in the time-line that observation takes place).

"it doesn't matter who or what knows the action I'm going to take as long as I make the decision. Anyone who is aware of the results of my decision before I make it is not imposing that on me"

They are imposing it on you if you cannot change your mind and do something contrary to what they knew. If the only possible actions are those that were known beforehand then you are not engaging in free action. Those actions are the only ones permitted. The fact that the agent does not know that their actions were already determined before hand and thus it appears as a 'choice' is irrelevant. It's on par with programming a computer to always select the lowest numbers of any group of numbers. The computer cannot do otherwise and is not a free agent, even though the computer is technically making the decision.

In a sentence, to have freedom of action means the ability to act contrary to how one actually acts. If the agent makes a "choice" it is not free if that was the only choice that was possible because it was known.