40% is less than half, Putin. Despite your protestations to the contrary, that is *not* a strong correlation. And our rape rate tripled for more factors than just actual rapes occuring having tripled. Women are mor eliekly to report it now than in the 60s and several forms of rape have come to light that used to be blamed on morning after remorse like date rape. Now, you get a girl drunk (no drugs requireD) to the point she is unconscious and have sex with her and it is classed as rape. In the 60s it was called getting lucky and she was called a drunked slut.

Oh, and again, 40% is not "Most convicted rapists". It is less than half. That si not most by anyone's definition of most. Most requires mjore than 50%. And you claim to be a grad student?

Draugnar your loathing of women is getting in the way of your ability to read basic sentences. 40% of Michigan convicts reported viewing porn just before or during the crime. That is quite apart from the fact that most convicts claim that porn influenced their overall behavior.

I'm not surprised you lament the fact that raping drunk and unconscious women is a crime. That's on par with your overall disgusting and violent misogyny. And I'm expected to have a nicer tone with rape apologists.

" Mushing violent rape porn in with the vast majority of mainstream hetero porn (featuring consensual, non-violent sex) is a red herring designed to draw a negative reaction to porn in general. "

You're clinging to but one example I brought up and then saying I'm using it as a red herring. There are many brutal and violent forms of pornography quite apart from rape porn, and so-called "mainstream" pornography is full of the kind degrading and disgusting scenes that have already been mentioned. Look at a grab bag of mainstream porn titles and tell which ones, exactly, are "empowering" for women and not violently exploitative.

" Pretty much every news report I see covering prostitution brings up underage prostitutes and sex slaves from Asia or Eastern Europe."

The average age of a woman entering prostitution is 14. And unlike other jobs, there is no option of quitting. Pimps are violent and treat prostitutes like chattel. Nearly 70% of prostitutes have reported that they were victims of sexual abuse at home. You want to focus on the handful of cases of so-called "voluntary" prostitution and make it seem like the entire sordid industry is some happy environment of mutually free and purely voluntary contracts. The unwillingess to confront the demand for servile sex objects (whether "free" or explicitly coerced) is what enables explicit and unabashed human trafficking and sex slavery to exist to begin with.

@Putin - I don't lament it. You are putting words in my mouth and attributing views to me that I don't hold. I firmly believe that the actions of a date raper are despicable. I was telling you how it was viewed in the 60s and 70s, a time frame I lived through, unlike you. If I had said black people in the early 19th century were viewed as disposable property or Jews in Nazi Germany were viewed as vermin, does that make me racist or atni-semitic? No. Date rape in the 60 sand 70s was viewed as "morning after regret" and the girls viewed as "drunken sluts/whores". That is a simple statement of fact and not a lament at all.

So get off your high horse.

Yes, I clearly misread your statement before. For that I apologize. And I'm no apologist for rapists. A good friend of mine who passed about 3 years ago (manic-depressive who commited suicide) was raped by her step brother. So I find the act despicable. I also find violent porn, bestiality porn, kiddie porn, and all non-consentual sex (rape, molestation, bestiality, wthatever) despicable and worthy of contempt, scorn, and the sex offenders of this nature to be the lowest of the low, below even serial killers who at least put their victims out of their misery.

I've been arguin numbers and asking for your evidence. Nothing more. You make it personal and attack. I did let slip one attack in the slight about your grad student status, but the fact is, you have yet to site one verifiable statistic. That's all I want. In particular your "99.9% of porn is evil/anti-woman.violent/rape/whatever" stat. Mainstream porn is very formulaic. Two girls and one or two guys a movie. Some "visitors" also come over. Mostly straight up sex with BJs, anal, cum on face/tits/ass/stomach, and at least one girl on girl scene plus a three way, usually both girls and a guy, but sometimes everyone gets involved. That is mainstream porn. I have no numbers or studies to back it up, but that is the majority of the porn that is out there and what most people watch.

Of course, there are perversions like simulated rape (the Japanese are really into that) and one wonders where the freedom of speech/artistic expression stops and the right to protect society begins.

But the real question is, does porn cause men to become rapist? Or does a proclivity to rape, manifest itself in watching porn. Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Is porn viewing a cause or a symptom?

I like watching fucktard porn, starring Fag-Naur's mother.

There's something about that old bitch in her pink fucktard that really gets my motor running.

lol.

@Putin: I'm clinging to one example? You gave on example (rape porn) and I addressed it. I never claimed that porn was "empowering" to women. I agree it generally is not (a minority niche to the contrary). I simply disputed the proposition that porn categorically is misogynistic or degrading to women. While there are *some* sites dedicated specifically to rape, non-consent, violence, humiliation, etc., and while *most* all-purpose sites have *some* selection in those categories, I still maintain that the vast majority of available porn on the internet is neither rape-oriented, non-consensual, violent, or humiliation-themed. I say this from the perspective and experience of a fish who swims in that ocean, rather than a beachcomber who thinks he knows about water.

Re prostitution, to be clear I am talking about in the United States and I am talking about media coverage in the United States. Sorry for you non-Americans, but I can only speak to what I know. Yeah, I understand that there are tons of early-teen prostitutes in Thailand, the Phillippines, Eastern Europe, etc. I'm talking about the United States, where I strongly dispute that the "average age of a woman entering prostitution is 14." I don't have stats to back me up, just as there are no reliable stats to establish the point. But if you look at the selection of what is out there on the street, the internet, through agencies, etc., it is ridiculous to say that the average age is 14. What, you think for every woman who starts hooking at 21 there is a setoff woman who started at 7? Or that 8 out of 10 started at 12 to even out the one who started at 18?

"Unlike other jobs, there is no option of quitting." Another ridiculous conclusion with no backup. Many, probably most, women enter prostitution for financial reasons. I would guess that usually it is because they feel they have no better choice to pay their bills, feed a drug habit, deal with an emergency, etc. To the extent that a financial burden (including a drug habit) is oppressive, then yes, I suppose you could say there is no option of quitting in the same sense that anyone needs income to meet their necessities. To say there is no option of quitting because most/all prostitutes are in physically coerced situations due to pimps/brothels/trafficking is a gross mischaracterization.

"Pimps are violent and treat prostitutes like chattel." I agree. Not all prostitutes are pimped, but I'd agree that probably most are at one time or another.

"Nearly 70% of prostitutes have reported that they were victims of sexual abuse at home." I can believe that's true. Are you saying that we should consider a woman who sells herself today a forced prostitute because she was abused at home before? I guess if you take that position, it's easier to say that 70% of prostitutes today are forced.

"You want to focus on the handful of cases of so-called "voluntary" prostitution and make it seem like the entire sordid industry is some happy environment of mutually free and purely voluntary contracts." No, I want to expose the bogus claim that most or all of prostitution in the U.S. is conducted by underage girls or illegal sex slaves trafficked from other countries, which is the focus of the media. I do not pretend that the sex industry is free of those cases, but they are a small percentage and it is media sensationalism to hype them us as a false portrayal of the typical situation. At the same time, I never said that the industry is a happy smurf village. I'd say the most common scenario for an American hooker is a woman over 18 (and started hooking while over 18) who was born in and never left the United States, who dislikes the job, but does it by rational choice because it's the fastest and easiest way to get cash and who is supporting a drug habit.

I have no problem with people who think that prostitution is bad for women, or who think it should be outlawed. I have a problem with people who incorrectly portray prostitution as all about minors and sex slaves in a deceptive effort to inflame sympathy. Similarly, I have no problem with people who think that pornography is bad for women, or who think it should be outlawed. I have a problem with people who incorrectly portray prostitution as all about rape and violence in a deceptive effort to inflame sympathy. I also find that frequently it is the same people do both things with which I have a problem, and it almost always is people who have little to no personal knowledge of what they're talking about but instead are citing their favorite "news" report, sociology study, or sermon.

"You gave on example (rape porn) and I addressed it."

I gave three examples. But that's besides the point. You even concede that mainstream porn is not empowering for women, but then go on to reject the idea that said porn is not degrading to women. You're talking out both sides of your mouth. Does porn have to involve blatant rape or violence in order to be degrading? Is that the only standard? It doesn't matter that pornography transforms women into nothing but servile subjugated objects for men's pleasure? That all mainstream porn sites describe women as whores, bitches, cunts, sluts, etc, or infantilizes them catering to the porn consumers desire to subjugate young girls.

"I'm talking about the United States, where I strongly dispute that the "average age of a woman entering prostitution is 14.""

I don't care if you 'strongly dispute' it. Multiple independent studies have shown that this is the average age of entry. (M.H. Silbert and A.M. Pines, 1982, “Victimization of street prostitutes, Victimology: An International Journal, 7: 122-133; D.Kelly Weisberg, 1985, Children of the Night: A Study of Adolescent Prostitution, Lexington, Mass, Toronto).

http://www.sagesf.org/html/info_briefs_who.htm

"" In the U.S., the average age of entry into prostitution is 14. The average age of entry into pornography is 11. The vast majority of the “supply side” of prostitution, meaning the people who are in the role of “prostitute”—are either children or teens, or adults who entered into systems of prostitution as children or teens."

"To say there is no option of quitting because most/all prostitutes are in physically coerced situations due to pimps/brothels/trafficking is a gross mischaracterization."

"Barry (1995) and Giobbe et al. (1990) estimate that at least 90 percent of prostitution is pimp-controlled. Sexual and physical abuse and torture are used by pimps to keep women from escaping prostitution (Barry, 1995; Dworkin, 1997; Hunter, 1994; MacKinnon, 1993). Pimps in Washington, DC, USA, employ ,catchers' -- thugs who stand guard at the borders of their turf and 'catch' girls trying to escape from prostitution (Michelle J. Anderson, personal communication, 1996)."

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/fempsy1.html

" I can believe that's true. Are you saying that we should consider a woman who sells herself today a forced prostitute because she was abused at home before? I guess if you take that position, it's easier to say that 70% of prostitutes today are forced."

Most prostitutes are child runaways, and it's easy to see why since most were abused in their homes. How people can say prostitution is "voluntary" under such conditions is incredible to me.

" I do not pretend that the sex industry is free of those cases, but they are a small percentage and it is media sensationalism to hype them us as a false portrayal of the typical situation."

The problem is precisely the opposite. The media portrays prostitutes as something akin to Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. The typical situation is that sexually abused young runaways who get into an organized crime run industry controlled by violent pimps. In people's minds only "foreign" women are trafficked, only foreign prostitutes are ensnared as children, while somehow American women are not. It's easy to believe such things because that makes it a problem for someone else to deal with. If it's not "our" women being victimized then it's easy to turn a blind eye to prostitution.

not empowering does not equal degrading. That is a false equivalency, Putin.

On your stats re: prostitution. I do agree. Unfortunately, most prostitutes in the US outsied of Clark County NV (home of Vegas) seem to start as either runaways from broken and abusive homes trying to live on the streets or as drug addicts (aka "crack whores") trying to get their next fix. In both cases, they are involuntarily trapped in the situation.

I recently saw a pretty interesting documentary about how the "new" growth sector in porn is college girls who get naked for their webcams (actual college girls, not...well, you know, how it used to be that you'd have 50 year old women claiming to be "barely legal"). A lot of them have the desire for extra money, the internet savvy, and the business knowledge to make some cash off it. Is this empowering or not?

Omg, as if everyone is ever gonna read these long texts...

I believe the idea is that if you write enough the chance that every single thing you've jotted down is wrong gets increasingly smaller. In the defence of the essay addicts amongst us there is usually something there worth reading... which is more than can be said for a lot of us. (coughEvWcough)

In a word, no. Who is in control of these 'sessions'? They're paid to take sexual orders. Plenty of young children getting wrapped into this sort of 'empowerment', because it's so unregulated.

Walls of text are inevitable since there are some who always whinge about not being quoted correctly or being misinterpreted. Plus there are demands for studies/sources and whatnot, either way there will be somebody complaining.

Worse yet abou tthe dorm cams and private webcam sessions is that these girls don't realize this will come back to haunt them later in life just like the sexting and sexual pictures posted by teens do today. It may empower them for a moment, but can destroy their future and lock them into the vicious porn cycle when they get addicted to the money it brings in.

I'll respond to your academic cites when I have more time. Off the top of my head, Silbert and Pines (1982) on which you rely for the proposition that the average age of entry into prositution is 13 was a 200-person survey of street workers in San Francisco almost thirty years ago. It's a far stretch to extrapolate that into a comment about U.S. prostitution in general today. But I'll get back to you.

Ouch guys! What are we talking about now???
Is porn justifiable morally?
Is porn dangerous to social health?
Is porn necessarily anti-feminist?
I mean, the questions are many and the answers, it seems, even more numerous!

Since I've already participated a fair bit to this debate, allow me one last comment. If the question is whether or not porn is an industry that feminists must NECESSARILY reject as pervasive and perpetuating paternalistic values, etc., then the answer is obviously no.
It's obviously so for all the hardcore feminists out there who have written rigorous essays in defence of porn, for all the feminist porn out there which proves that there is a way to DO porn that doesn't conflict with feminist values, for all the women who actually enjoy porn in a positive way, etc.

If the question is whether or not historically porn has been detrimental to the way occidental societies view women, then I would argue that it can't be properly determined just what the effect was. The reason is that porn is not the only vector of values detrimental to a fairer valuation of genders, and that it's virtually impossible to assess all of the causes at stake nor how importantly they have impacted such issues. Having said all that, it's obvious that much porn was done and perceived in a way that reinforced the thought that women are "less" then men, or merely there to serve their needs.

Beyond that, I don't know what you guys aim to establish.

I think it would be interesting to look at the differences in the girls/women involved in illegal versus legal prostitution here in the states...

"lock them into the vicious porn cycle when they get addicted to the money it brings in"...

Sorry, have we moved into satire when I wasn't paying attention? I can't help but feel that we're pushing the definition of victim to new limits here. Quite clearly the bank CEOs were also victims of society and sufferers of money addiction, and are in need of not our scorn but our love, forgiveness, and holidays in the sun to help them return to normal life.

College girls using dorm cams or lapdancing know exacty what they are doing. They need our sympathy even less than they need our condemnation. It is their choice. Let them get on with their lives as they see fit.

They "know what their doing" the same as the soldiers who joined up for the army and believed their recruiter when they said "You'll never get shot. We have the greatest equipment in the world!" Just because they turned 18 doesn't mean they magically became mature enough to make these decisions. They are still kids and mpost don't mature enough to be rational until their mid 20s.

In libertopia, so long as your subjugation is "voluntary", it's acceptable. It's like pay day loans. Hey, you 'consented' to these usurious interest rates so don't complain about the consequences. And obviously they all knew that their likenesses would be handed off to porn profiteers and sent to their webcam megasites.

I have long been a believer that a route of many of America's problems is that fully grown and rational adults are treated like kids. Yes, 18 year olds are fully mature enough to make life decisions. Most have been for years before. I also find it hard to believe that US army is as pathetic as you describe.

Putin, I think you'd enjoy the documentary "Live Nude Girls Unite!"
It's about a bunch of strippers who unionize. Not the most amazing doc but it's an interesting story.

In an ideal world, there's no porn; everyone gets his or her beautiful partner every night (not necessarily the same partner for all nights)

@Oct - who said it was pathetic? The recruiters... They are another story. They are paid to put an awesome spin on everything military. I was slamming them, but not the service itself. I did my time in the Corps and owuld never slam the military, just the recruiters who are the military's equivalent of used car snake oil salesmen.

As far as being mature enought o make life decisions at 18. Your opinion not withstanding, it is the general consensus of most psychologists and child development specialists that our children are, on average, *not* mature enough to make those decision until about 21 or 22 (hence the drinking age in the US) and many not until they reach their mid to late 20s with outliers never truly acheiving it.

"As far as being mature enought o make life decisions at 18. Your opinion not withstanding, it is the general consensus of most psychologists and child development specialists that our children are, on average, *not* mature enough to make those decision until about 21 or 22 (hence the drinking age in the US) and many not until they reach their mid to late 20s with outliers never truly acheiving it. "

I hate to derail this conversation any more but this is such a loaded statement that I must ask for proof or gtfo

Here are a couple of quick ones for you.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2006/02/06.html
http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/teen_brains_trial.html

^Very interesting but doesn't really support the "*general consensus* of most psychologists and child development specialists that our children are, on average, not mature enough to make those decision until about 21 or 22 "

Still, I'm going to keep looking.

exactly how do you consider that an article (or many articles) in a magazine, constitute a proof?
First of all, no scientific theory can be proved (if by proof you mean an absolute certainty).
Second, the matter of "decisions" at some age or another, is in the limits of science and philosophy (particularly, ethics). It's a still harder question