@Nigee - I don't know where you got your $1000 for equipment. You should bump that up to like 10x that and rmemeber that the procedure alone isn't where the cost is. Each days stay starts at $1000 typically. The cost for multiple nurses across the shifts and continuous monitoring in an ICU as well as the equipment used to keep fluids and pump in medications and the meds themselves... ICU costs are in the tens of thousands per day. And staff costs are higher than that due to the insurance *they* have to carry thanks to a litigious society.

You are just assuming that everyone can afford insurance, Draug. Not so. Sorry, that is the straight up reality. We can't all go out and take time sifting through car lots for BMWs, you know.

Links or you are lying. And I will put money to the site down that shows *all* of those are non-functioning (barrels filled in with cement or essential components missing) or owned by someone in law enforcement/active military.

BMW? I snub my nose at them!

But onto the more serious part of your statement. My insuyrance is the same insurance the janitor at my company has. And I have already said that basic medically necessary care should be free to those in poverty and, guess what, there are lots of clinics these folks can use. Hell, my church supports one that does eye care for anyone under 200% poverty level free of charge, including laser surgeries and such. It's part of why my insurance has to pay so much for my eye surgery (I go to CEI, the same folks who run the free eye clinic). That equipment costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy and thousands to operate and maintain every month.

"And staff costs are higher than that due to the insurance *they* have to carry thanks to a litigious society."
This is why we have govts and laws, to prevent exploitation of the most vulnerable from the market excesses, if you have excessive costs sounds like they need a new Law passed

We've needed litigation reform for a *long* time. Make attorneys and litigants have to pay reverse damages if they lose a their suit and you will see frivilous lawsuits dry up.

"I saw a documentary about a guy who owned an anti-aircraft cannon in Kentucky. As well as this, there are 8 civilian-owned mini-guns in the United States. "

And yet....there are zero recorded murders or deaths by legally owned anti-aircraft guns or mini-guns. So...maybe legal gun ownership isn't such a bad thing...because those stats are pretty damned good..

So your insurance is paid by your employer in full? The place I work at doesn't provide insurance for anything extensive. Point being that it's unfortunately not everywhere.

You can't have free healthcare only for people in poverty... that's too impractical. Just wouldn't work. It's either all or none in that way to me.

Honestly, though, do you know the value of $2500? If you live on $20,000 a year (yes, I know that's low, but not by much), that's more than a month of your pay. If you, combined with paying for rent or utilities, insurance, food, clothes, A FAMILY, etc. etc., $2500 is a ton of money, probably more than you're able to save throughout a year. And that's on your insurance plan, which is essentially covered completely.

If someone has to pay $150,000 for eight operations in order to remove tumors like someone in my family and live on $20,000 - hell, even someone in the middle of the pack around $50,000 - you're completely screwed.

"We've needed litigation reform for a *long* time. Make attorneys and litigants have to pay reverse damages if they lose a their suit and you will see frivilous lawsuits dry up."

Now that's an idea...

No, they pay for about half the premium and I pay for the other half. For a couple it costs about $200 per month. There is a lesser tier and, of course, anyone who wishes can opt out. But $200 per month pre tax is pretty cheap and means my total out of pocket (which is also pre tax as I contribute to a FSA) for a year is less than $5000 for my whole household.

@Bo - You do realize that you *cannot* be turned down for necessary surgery even if unable to pay and that hospitals and healthcare providers *cannot* garnish your wages for non-payment. So while it may seem like a lot, it ends up coming back to the tax payer paying for it anyhow if you don't.

"You are just assuming that everyone can afford insurance, Draug. Not so. Sorry, that is the straight up reality. We can't all go out and take time sifting through car lots for BMWs, you know. "

And yet, most Americans, while bitching about the insurance costs - i.e. the cost of their own health - have enough money for cell phones with data plans, cable TV, alcohol, etc.

The problem with American's is not so much that they can't afford insurance, is that they think that they have a *right* to have it provided to them, so instead of being frugal with their money, and *prioritizing* their expenditures, they buy whatever they *want* and demand the rest (i.e. their needs) be provided to them.

I also find it humorous when bo-sox, who's daddy is a rich entrepreneur who takes his children on lavish vacations around the world - starts pretending likes he's down for the fight with the man on the street.

How does that silver spoon in your mouth taste, bo-sox? I wonder how often, when Daddy is about to spens money for toys or vacations, you ask him, instead, to send the money to a charitable organization? I wonder if even once in your life you have given up so that other's may have? Done charity work? Anything? Or are you the typical douchebag rich liberal brat living off the financial tit of someone else while you instruct others on how they should live their lives?

Draug - you are asking bo to let *facts* get in the way of his ideology! Stop that!!!

"For a couple it costs about $200 per month"

Cable tv + internet access (available at teh local library for free) is about $100, give or take. Extra cell phone options (data plan) $30/month. don't go out to eat, stop buying expensive pre-processed snack foods and alcohol/pop...easy to find the other $70...IF you believe your own health is important...

I know. I keep expecting him to wake up.

Krellin there are no civilian crimes caused by nuclear bombs either - doesn't mean we should allow everyone to possess them.

Hey krellin, remember when Obama won and now I get all sorts of free shit at your expense because you work so hard and are so valuable and stuff compared to me but I get all this free shit.

hey krellin, thank you for all the free shit I'm getting.

@ SYnapse

There are ways to get some awesome stuff with the right licenses, which are rare and expensive. There are dozens of civilian-owned, fully functional tanks in America. When is the last time you heard about a drive-by shooting with an anti-aircraft gun or a tank?

SYnapse...good god, you idiot - can't you morons ever learn to understand when someone is obviously joking...fuck...I'm mocking you now because you are such an extremist.

@YJ - no idea what you are talking about, and, of course, your just sidetracking another conversation, pretending to yourself to be witty, when nobody knows what the fuck you are talking about. It's a pity - because I suspect you are actually a little more intelligent than you demonstrate. Maybe some day you will grow up...but I'm not holding my breath.

As for free stuff (that you pretend to be getting...whatever...) you enjoy that, while people like Draug and I purchase far superior things with our vast wealth and laugh at the little people like you are pretending to be who are either to irresponsible, or genetic inferior to us...and simply can never obtain our lofty heights of success... Beg on beggar...enjoy holding your hand out: It gives me a target to spit at when I'm bored...

I'm awake, but krellin's rambling is making me sleepy.

Ahhh...another response from an intellectual midget....too stupid to defend his own arguments and too afraid to stand like a man in debate. Throw your stones...it proves your defeat as you cower and whine.

And for crying out loud, if you are going to try to sidestep an argument by attacking me, *at the very least* come up with a few decent comebacks. It's like trading insults with a kindergartner...sheesh...

I wish I could declare victory like that. It would make me cool like special k. Also, you work for a temp agency. We both know you don't make nearly enough to put yourself in the same category as Draug. Also, since income is apparently how you judge success, I'll be sure to let you know what kinda figure I land after I get my phD. It will cripple you emotionally to know that your old pal YJ now surpasses you in every way.

Hey krellin, remember when Obama won and you cowered for a week?

@YJ - After you get you PhD, youand I can compare annual income. Then we'll see if you think your PhD was worth it versus my 2 year Associate degree.

You can't declare victory, because you are a chronic loser.
You also know nothing about high tech staffing and getting paid on high percentages of candidates salaries for every placement...but you think what you want.
And...I realyl have no fear of being surpassed by YJ in *any* aspect of my life.

As for success - I don't' judge success by money - you do, which is why I mock you about income. ALL liberals judge success purely by a number - it's part of your incredible hypocrisy, that you decry wealth, decry what you deem as success, while constantly demanding that you get your fair share of it.

You have no idea what I judge as success in life, because you neither ask, nor do you listen. But...a person with talent that refuses to use it...a person who lives with his hand out begging...that, I can tell you with certainty...is failure.

@Draug You may be able to get health care that cheap, but not everyone can. Until my MIL could get on Medicare (She was laid off and forced to retire early) any healthcare she found was 1k+ a month. That just wasn't feasible for her no matter what she did.

All that being said...YJ...you really need a boyfriend. Hate to tell you this, pal, but I'm married, and you're not my type. It makes me feel bad for you that every time I type anything you have to pipe up and chase after me - you don't even respond to what I say, you just ask about me, like a little girl with a fetish. You got a little emotional thing for me, pal? It's kind of creepy...just another in a long list of your string of failures..your lost love adventures, huh? Sorry 'about that, creepy boy..