Draugnar - I know you don't like to concede an arguement, but tying to justify calling with 22 because she is loose is crazy. You're only slightly ahead against most bluffs. That's no way to play poker my friend.

At the joker - you're right a pair above 77s will dominate 72o and A6o will have 3 outs. The thing is that (a) you shouldn't be calling with small pairs if you can be damaged by losing and (b) it is far more likely that a player will have Ax than a pair.

I've given examples of when the blinds are low and a6o is hard to play if an A flops and I've said that its close when you only have 10bb and need to shove late on.

It is probably true that if we calculated the EV of every hand then A6 has a higher EV than 72o. My point is that 72 is easier to play, you fold, fold, fold or raise to steal and fold to a re-raise. If you hit the flop hard you're hand is disguised and you can make money, if you miss the flop its easy to fold.

A6o looks pretty but so often you may as well be playing with just the 6 as you can never know where you are if an A flops. Several players could lose their whole stack against any bigger ace as they find it so hard to let top pair go no matter how heavy he betting.

Poker is about knowing where yo are I the hand, winning or losing. You generally always know where yo are with junk hands like 72, Q6 etc and monster like Aa, ak, KK etc. you seldom know where you are with A6 unless the flop comes 66 x. But ever then are you likely to get another guy's stack unless he's playing 65s or 76s?

If somebody is pushing all in for 10 bbs, its mandatory to call with any pair. Their shoving range is so wide.

And going broke with A6 when you flop one pair isn't the fault of the hand you're holding. That's the player's fault for being a bad player.

At joker - it isn't mandatory to call with any pr when someone has 10bb. Calling with 22 for example means at best you are a little bit in front even if he has say 85o. You are dominated by bigger prs. If you have 100bb sure think about calling, but of you can be crippled or eliminated by calling with 22 then fold and wait to get your chips in first.

I agree losing your stack with A6 is the players fault, but players who call to see flop with A6 have hard time putting it down if they flop top pr. fold it pre flop, there will be Exeter opportunities.

Better not Exeter

Exeter is better :)

Convinced you're just trolling at this point.

After reading this, I've decided to take the next two weeks off from work, provided Maniac lives within a few hundred miles of me and is willing to put up a decent sum of money in a friendly game of No Limit Hold Em.

Oh, and 85o always wins, although for an unrelated reason.

TheJok3r - If you think you should be valling with all small pairs when you can be cripled you don't understand ICM and tournament equity at all. Google them and you might learn something rather than assuming that you know how to play the game.

Dan - you should read the note above about ICM. If you still want to come and give me your money I can normally be found in the casinos around birmingham UK 3 or 4 nights a week.

Then why don't we all play PKR with fake money to see who's the best without wasting money? :P

Because poker without real money at risk is stupid. It allows people to do things they wouldn't normally do. It becomes a game of chance with people chasing instead of a game of skill with bluffs partial bluffs and.pushing.people off good hands because it could cost them real money tp call.

@Maniac - There in lies the difference. Tournament play isbvery different from cash game plays. I only play cash games (the occasional sit-n-go but no multi tables) and with no increasing blinds, no antes, and being able to wallbaway with your winnings at any time, your play style is very different. There is no push to get you money all in and it is less about how many big blinds you have and more about a willingness to rebuy if you bust knowing every chip in front.of you is cash equal to its value.

In a tournament setting there's no difference after the buy-in, right?
We could do that, just curious who's the best here :P

Didn't see the last message from Draugnar yet, but offer still counts :)

Huge difference as you can always go buy more chips and sit down in a cash game. Tournament rebuys are limited. Plush you have a bubble where you are in the money or not and play approach varies depending on blind counts and closeness to the bubble.

I meant no difference between real or fake cash, also I'm talking about one table, no rebuys. And if we would do this, we just try to get first... Like I said, just want to see who's the best here (or just kick Draugnar's ass) while having fun with poker, and yes I know it's different but it's still poker :)

Real vs. fake cash. When you have $50 - $15000 on the line in a tournament versus your pride, you tell me if you will play different or not.

I wouldn't. But again, yes it's different, but it's still poker, and I think it does show who's good and who's bad...

At steephie22 - I already know who the second best poker player on the planet is. I'm guessing the greatest doesn't play diplomacy so I'll play with any of you at anytime.

Playing one session of poker proves nothing btw, one has to access your results over years to know if you're ahead or not.

Hell, I don't even care about my pride.

That was to my other post :P

You may say you wouldn't play any differently but the only way to prove it is to play with two stacks of chips - one real and one play. See how many hamds you chase with the play but fold with the real chips and compare the outcomes.

Ok, so maybe you're right, maybe I do play differently then, so? It's still poker, and you still need a strategy to win (normally). Especially in a tournament I don't see the big difference.

@steephie22 - the difference is if I hold KK and you hold A5 diamonds and the flop comes over Kd 9 2s I'm favourite to win the hand so bet around 3/4 to half the pot. You call. You might do this with 10000 chips representing 10% of your $100 buy in and you'd almost certainly do it if you 10000 chips represented 10% of your play money. The turn is a 8h. I sense you were drawing and missed so I know want to bet big say 60000 chips, what do you do? I suspect most players fold in real money games and call or raise all-in in play money games. That's why poker can only be played for money.

I wouldn't call at all, I'd fold after that flop for sure, before it depends on if I have a blind and what the other players do. If I would've called for some strange reason I would fold afterwards. In all cases real or fake doesn't matter to me, I try to win, fake or real.

@steephie22 - If you would fold after flopping 4 to the nut flush, then you will lose a lot of money on poker. That is a raising hand, NOT a folding hand. Depending on where you are in a tournament or a cash game, that could be an all-in hand.

Short stacked with four to the nut flush off the flop, all-in even in a cash game. Best shot at doubling or tripling up (possibly more).

@Jim: Steephie would actually be correct to fold on the turn in the example Maniac gave him. Although, I agree that on the flop I'm most likely raising and not calling. But calling a near pot sized bet on the turn with one card to come is not a profitable decision.

"If you think you should be valling with all small pairs when you can be cripled you don't understand ICM and tournament equity at all."

If you don't think you should be calling with all small pairs against a 10bb shove in a tournament, then you have no understanding of shoving ranges. Google them and you might learn something rather than assuming that you know how to play the game.

@TheJok3r - You are right, in a way. What I failed to stress is that is a raising hand on the flop. She said that she would fold after the flop for sure. THAT is a bad decision and will lead to losing plenty of money / chips.