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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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muni3 (178 D)
01 Sep 09 UTC
Move question
Ok so, Army A is moving from Area A to Area B. Army C who is in Area C supports the hold on Area A. What is the status of this support, given that Army A is moving?
4 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
01 Sep 09 UTC
Ghost-Ratings
I have rather hit a buffer with calculating the Ghost-Ratings, namely that the database claims that the first game on this site finished at Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:09:55 GMT. This seems perhaps a little out.
7 replies
Open
DougWebber (208 D)
31 Aug 09 UTC
Feature Request: Email alerts
This is an excellent web site. One feature I would like to see: email alerts. That way when an ally sends a message you would see it right in your email, and you can be notified when all orders are complete. I think it will speed up the games, and it will help prevent order mess-ups when you have to coordinate with others.
9 replies
Open
Aphex Twin
Which is your favorite track?
3 replies
Open
Carpysmind (1423 D)
01 Sep 09 UTC
Game "Crashed"
My game; http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=12763#gamePanel

has "Crashed". How does this get fixed?
0 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
31 Aug 09 UTC
TMG Masters-Round 1 Starting
And the good news for me is that this means there's probably a few weeks ahead where the Leagues and the Masters require very little work at all. :)
22 replies
Open
48 hours, nice pot of 50 each
Play. IM me for password.
4 replies
Open
Fluorspar (494 D)
31 Aug 09 UTC
Question
im not sure if im missing anything obvious but i would like to ask, how do we withdraw from a game?
4 replies
Open
Lumpy (115 D)
01 Sep 09 UTC
Draw, Pause, Cancel? What the...?!
The voting board beneath the in-game map? How does that work? Draw seems clear enough, but cancel and pause...they give me pause. And if I click Draw, then what happens? Nothing unless more people click it? I don't want to touch it without knowing the answers to these questions.
1 reply
Open
rlumley (0 DX)
01 Sep 09 UTC
Bug
This has probably been mentioned, but here goes... http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=8234

It says I got like 700 D for a 150 or so pot game... It was forever ago though.
0 replies
Open
Acosmist (0 DX)
31 Aug 09 UTC
Open game - 36 hr., 75 points, WTA
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13085

Anyone welcome.
8 replies
Open
amonkeyperson (100 D)
30 Aug 09 UTC
WTA 8/30/09|90 Let's get it on!
New game
90 point buy-in ; WTA ; 36 hours
Link inside...
26 replies
Open
tilMletokill (100 D)
26 Aug 09 UTC
Is this the real Life,
Is this just fantasy....
72 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
30 Aug 09 UTC
Mapleleaf, Chrispminis and Sirither
Could the above please reply to the email I sent them two days ago.

Thanks
3 replies
Open
Star Revil (276 D)
30 Aug 09 UTC
What the..?? Defeated player wins 23 points?
Why did France win his 23 D in a draw, if he has 0 supply centers?
9 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
26 Aug 09 UTC
TMG Masters Players
The first game of the TMG Masters is due to start on Monday, 31st September.

Please see inside for the list of players for this Masters tournament.
106 replies
Open
rlumley (0 DX)
30 Aug 09 UTC
Points
Points (Points) (D) (test Points test)
10 replies
Open
tilMletokill (100 D)
31 Aug 09 UTC
High school
First week of high school was fun....found out this will be a good year....my grade..juniors...are getting our on laptops its cool....its funny that my school district is in debt in the millions but still fines money to get laptops...how was everyone elses first week(if you went)?
12 replies
Open
Preechur (235 D)
31 Aug 09 UTC
Confused about a failed attack
Playing as Italy in game 36309 "Fun with Guns" attacking Trieste from Vienna with uncut support from Albania. Austria has a move to Trieste from Budapest and he is attacking Albania from Trieste. It' s been a while since I played this but I thought I would win such a scenario? Can anyone help me understand what happened and why my supported attack did not succeed?

2 replies
Open
redcrane (1045 D)
29 Aug 09 UTC
Political Geography
Maybe this happens to other people too...
1) The Balkans don't look like the Diplomacy map anymore.
43 replies
Open
SirLoseALot (441 D)
30 Aug 09 UTC
130911 Fun for Guns - Mod/admin check?
Austria, not taking sides on this but Italy was asking:
- how did Italy not get Trieste?
- when Albania went to Trieste with support from Venice? and none support cut?
2 replies
Open
muni3 (178 D)
30 Aug 09 UTC
FtF vs. Online Play
So how many of you play FtF? Any preferences on FTF v. Online?
9 replies
Open
muni3 (178 D)
30 Aug 09 UTC
Attack question
Unit A attempts to move to Area Z, supported by two other units. Unit B also tries to move into Area Z without support from two other units. Unit C attacks Unit A with no support.

I think that the attack on Area Z will be a stand-off, and since Unit A cannot move to Area Z, Unit C's attack on A will also be a stand-off. Is this correct?
4 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
21 Aug 09 UTC
Inglorious Basterds [sic]
So... I just saw the movie at my theater at midnight.

When other people on the forum see it make sure to post what you think on this thread. I'm very curious.
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Thucydides (864 D(B))
27 Aug 09 UTC
No doubt what Germany perpetrated as a nation in WW2 was patently evil, Richard.

That's not what I was saying. What I'm saying is: To condemn every last person wearing a Nazi uniform to a brutal death is just about as evil as doing the same to those who wear a yellow star. You might say "but they were FORCED to wear the star." In some cases, there would be significant pressure to don a uniform.

Recall 1984. The government is pure evil, but would you say that every citizen is? No. It's more of a "they know not what they do" kind of thing. The comparison isn't perfect though because many did know what they were doing and deserved punishment. Now think about Nazi Germany again. Imagine a Winston-type character in the army. He still goes out and kills British soldiers and still shows up at Nazi rallies and screams at the top of his lungs. But.... is he evil for this? What is the alternative for him? You mention armed resistance. Yes, that is an option. But we never expect, honestly, for EVERYONE to be in resistance like that. It's like what warsprite said, if we did, we'd have to blame every citizen of a country that does one bad thing. Is every American guilty of the things done at Abu Grahib?

From another level, some of the ones that may have even really believed in the Nazi cause aren't necessarily ones we should condemn. Propaganda has a powerful effect on people, and just because we can look back at the horror of what reality was and say "what was wrong with them?" doesn't mean they had such an opportunity. After all, hindsight is 20/20. If you want to take those people who were convinced by the propaganda and condemn, then ok... that's a bit of a sticky issue that's more ambiguous, but just remember that if you had been in their spot, the likelihood is rather high that you would have done the same things.

Back to those that didn't buy the propaganda though, but felt like they had to act. Just because there aren't a multitude of records of internal dissent doesn't mean it didn't exist. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. That is why it is wrong to condemn the whole entire group. It would be just as wrong as it would be for me, being a white guy who lives in the South, to say "black people are all criminals."

No they're not. That's just messed up. Just like saying "all Nazis were evil" is messed up. It is not wrong to say something different though like "what the Nazis did was evil" or "Hitler was an asshole." Just like it would be ok for me to say "That punk that stole my TV is an asshole." I would never say "the black race stole my TV."
Has anyone here seen the flick who has also seen the original? I know this storyline isn't even a little bit related... any idea why QT felt the need to hijack the name? I plan to wait for DVD. Lost interest in QT quite awhile back, and I have a feeling this one is hyped way out of proportion. But I've been looking for an explanation for the choice of name... and hoping it wasn't pure marketing crap.
Zeno Izen (100 D)
27 Aug 09 UTC
The movie could have used some editing.
spyman (424 D(G))
27 Aug 09 UTC
Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum.
spyman (424 D(G))
27 Aug 09 UTC
That is "With love for mankind and hatred of sins" (St Augustine).
Richard III (373 D)
27 Aug 09 UTC
"To condemn every last person wearing a Nazi uniform to a brutal death is just about as evil as doing the same to those who wear a yellow star. You might say "but they were FORCED to wear the star." In some cases, there would be significant pressure to don a uniform."

Thucydides, I'm going to ignore the surreal comparison between wearing a uniform in action and getting herded at gunpoint into a train here and stick to your point, which essentially seems to boil down to the question, "but what about 'the good german?'"

And I say "there weren't many," and you say 'but there were some!' Which is why earlier, I replied to one of your (?) comments by noting that *enough* Germans were pro-Nazi by word, deed or omission that generalizations could be made, and still can be - and even, still *should* be if we're going to avoid repeating the mistakes Germany made as a nation.

Of course there were exceptions, and bless them for their efforts. Really, I mean that. But there were SO few, Allied soldiers and nations had no moral choice but to shoot every German in uniform, and many out of uniform, as if that German represented the worst of Nazism because for practical purposes the entire German nation was doing precisely that. You could, for example, have a very nice, kind German family man in a garrison unit in the Loire Valley. And you know what? No matter how nice he is, he's still an agent of forcible occupation, and short of off taking his uniform and deserting or actively assisting the resistance from within, said sample German did make, had made, and was making the moral choice to participate in the actions of a deeply immoral state engaged in deeply immoral actions. Short of his own surrender at the first sight of the enemy, the only moral Allied course was to kill him as the agent of Nazism he in fact and deed was. Period.

In the midst of a total war started unprovoked by a lethal enemy, it isn't our responsibility to stop, pluck out, and forgive or protect the (tiny) moral minority, especially if the moral minority happens to be occupying the same territory, wearing the same uniform, and shooting the same rifle with ammo made from the same munitions factory as the 600 other amoral assholes in his battalion. For all intents and purposes, enough was wrong, by enough of Germany, that we can make generalizations about its national behavior because German actions and support for Nazism made those generalizations true enough to stick.

Ok, so what if there was "pressure" to join, or enlist, or conscription? What if fighting to conquer a dozen countries was "the law." Well, so what? To the point earlier (warsprite, I think) that Germans were living under duress, oh well - so was half of Europe. The risk of life and limb didn't stop tens of millions of Allied soldiers and civilians on either side of the front line taking extreme risks - how can we laud them on the one hand, and then say "it's cool, no big deal" to the German who shot back on the other side of the line as though he's some sort of victim? Millions took risks and died doing it, yet strangely, in the face of those same risks, the German underground, such as it was, was a microscopic speck. Not incidentally, in Japan, it was nonexistent. German actions during the war speak for themselves, and speak rather more loudly than post-war words.

It's a stain and an insult to the memory of those people who DID those risks - and often lost life, limb or family to do it - to apply some sort of weepy moral airbrush as if millions of Germans spoke out or objected when nothing of the sort happened. In fact, the contrary was true: millions of Germans risked their lives repeatedly to maintain the occupation, to plunder their conquests or accelerate the Holocaust. Such is the ledger of history.
Draugnar (0 DX)
27 Aug 09 UTC
It's not the same name. QT misspelled both words, intentionally I'm sure.
warsprite (152 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
@Dingleberry Only partial credit for the internal matters part. The Baltic States, Poland, Winter War in Finland, and Tibet where hardly internal. Also the Ukrainians and Georgians might dispute your definition of internal. And we did fight the Chinese in a little place called Korea. No wonder it's called the forgotten war. Also US pilots did fight Russian pilots in Korea and Vietnam. As for Hollywood, your saying bread and circus. Yes which makes it all the worse. A good director and producer will fill seats on any worthy subject.
warsprite (152 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
@ Invictus By Richard III's definition, you are now an official, ignorant Nazi sympathizer. Congratulations!
Warsprite,
You have such a simplistic view of history. If you want to compare our fight in Korea with our fight against Germany in Europe, there's not much I can do to bother convincing you. Wow, and we fought a few Russian pilots in Vietnam? Yeah, same thing.

As for Georgia, Ukraine, the Baltics, they were part of the Soviet Union at the time, no, and were recognized as such? You want to claim technicalities about individual pilots in Vietnam and overlook that?
Invictus (240 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
Wow! It's a good thing I opened the thread even though my last writing had to be 15 posts ago and I never really was part of the debate.

Are you seriously calling me a Nazi sympathizer because I found some humanity with the German soldier beaten to death in the movie? Because I found the murder of a man in cold blood repulsive even if he MIGHT have been a Nazi?

If not being a sociopath makes me a Nazi sympathizer, then I guess I ought to go shave my head.
Acosmist (0 DX)
28 Aug 09 UTC
so again Tarantino made a move that indulges his morbid interest in violence and death, dehumanizing the art form itself in the pursuit of _______ (and in all his movies we still haven't filled in that blank)
Star Revil (276 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
I'm playing this game and I'm kicking ass! ;$
No Invictus, thats Warsprites lame attempt at making Richard III look silly.
Invictus (240 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
Well then I guess I'm mad at Richard III.

Sorry, warsprite.
Richard III (373 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
?

Invictus, I responded directly to those posts that bothered me, and mentioned those posters by name. My particular issue was with those who were being glib with the historical situation. Your name wasn't on my list, but I guess warsprite is looking for friends to make his position seem more normal.

Your name wasn't on my list, but maybe it should have been. Killing a soldier brutally onscreen is often bad, twisted or tasteless cinema - I don't know if it was in this case because I won't see the flick until Saturday, and if that's your issue, well, that's a critique of the choices in making a movie, and I have no trouble with that.

But were a German soldier *in real life* beaten to death in France by French civilians or Allied soldiers anytime between May 10, 1940 and VE-Day in 1945, by definition, that soldier was an occupier on behalf of the German state, an armed invader, and by his very presence within France he was enabling the commission of war crimes perpetrated by or on behalf of Germany - committed by Germans rather than by "Nazis." It would be a little strange to portray the death of such a soldier in those circumstances as "murder," "sociopathic," or in "cold blood," and unless you're a fierce pacifist or a quaker, the only rational explanation to call his death by such names is to argue that there was some sort of excuse for the Germans to be invading all of these countries, which in my part of the world at least is understood to mean you're sympathizing with the Nazis. Because, well, putting their soldiers and their actions morally on par with Allied collective defence and liberation IS sympathizing with the Nazis.

Would killing that soldier be "murder?" No, on the contrary - beating such a soldier to death would a one step closer to liberation and victory; the fact that it might not happen as elegantly or politely as you'd have liked might have had something to do with why the German was within range of a French fist in the first place, don't you think?

And if your quarrel is with the French resistance for not following the niceties of the laws of war, perhaps the victims of countless war crimes committed by the Wermacht and SS alike from 1939 forward might have a point to make about "the rules of war" and their application. :-)
Draugnar (0 DX)
28 Aug 09 UTC
So, even a German soldier were to take a leave in Paris (as was VERY common) and then the underground beat him to death, even though he wasn't posted in France, you don't view that as brutality? Why do we even have the Geneva Conventon and rules regarding prisoner treatment if we are going to use the "eye for an eye" justification.

Just because the other side commits attorcities does NOT give us the right to do the same. "'Vengeance is mine,' sayeth the Lord. 'I will repay.'" is more than just a verse from a book some consider a fairy tale. Whether you believe all the hocus pocus mumbo jumbo of miracles and resurrections and what not, it's still a good guide to set your moral compass by, at least the New Testament is. And that is why we have rules of engagment and laws about revenge. Otherwise, vigilanties would run rampant in our streets.

You are talking about vigilantism in war being OK. It isn't anymore than it is in society.

The honest man knows that revenge does not taste sweet.
According to the Geneva Conventions, etc, you still need to abide by the laws of war even if your enemy doesn't.

However, I'm not sure why beating a German soldier in France to death would violate the laws of war. TORTURING him would, but killing him? I think any member of an invading army (whether posted to Paris or not) is a target. I'm not sure how you would possibly consider otherwise Draugnar.
Richard III (373 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
1. I didn't say anything about whether it was brutal, I'm discussing whether it's moral - and in particular, whether the deaths of an aggressor's soldiers are morally the same as the death of those defending themselves from unprovoked invasion.

War is brutal. That's precisely why we should impose a greater moral burden on those who choose - and those countries - who shoot first.

2. The reason the German soldier was able to take leave in Paris was because his army conquered it. When he was there, he was spending occupation currency which artificially inflated his purchasing power as part of a deliberate Many of the goods and services If he was on leave from Poland, he was on leave from another country even more brutally invaded and occupied. If he's on leave from Bremen, then he's there protecting ports which were being used to launch subs to wage unrestricted war on civilian ships on the high seas, or perhaps guarding prison camps full of French soldiers who had donned uniforms solely to stop Germans in uniform from invading other countries.

Who cares where he's stationed? What's to suppose he won't be stationed in Versailles or Rennes or Caen some other week? If there's an alert, who's to say the guy on leave might not be rounding up hostages from an apartment building twenty minutes after eating twice the French weekly ration in a local cafe?

Why is it the obligation of the resistance in an invaded country to sit down and interview German soldiers to figure out which ones are "really nice guys?" Why is everyone here so eager to find moral excuses to pity those wearing the uniform of a country that invaded a dozen others, but not a whiff of understanding for the actions of those who fought and died to defend, protect or liberate them? Honestly, it's surreal.

We're not talking about "vigilantism." We're not talking about revenge (if we were, there wouldn't be any Germany left to forgive). There's no police force for the occupied to turn to, no district attorney to file a lawsuit. This wasn't a matter of both sides respecting the rules of war and suddenly some civilians change the rules. This was self-defence. This was "Total War," in the most literal sense of the word, a struggle for the literal survival of families, races, and even entire societies.

The German nation started that total war after a series of provocations. Germany asked for a total war, set it in motion, enjoyed the fruits of it, and exploited it right to the bitter end. And how many times do I need to say, none of it would have happened without the enthusiastic support and sacrifices of millions of Germans.

"Vigilantism isn't acceptable in society." Maybe you don't get it yet, but there wasn't a society any longer. Germany's active goal as an occupier was the forcible reconstruction or destruction of foreign societies on Germans terms, fed by plundered food sent to Germany, fuelled by forced or slave labor, financed by theft from occupied countries and imprisoned or murdered Jews, all as deliberate acts of public policy - and you want the old carpenter in Arras who's never going to see his son again to wake up the next morning and write a strongly worded letter to the League of Nations asking for an embargo? You want the Belgian who's just seen his family taken hostage by the Wermacht to say "oh, I'd better get an international lawyer in the room so I know whether throwing a rock or two might violate the Geneva Convention?"

Please.
Chrispminis (916 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
We didn't start the fire, am I right Richard III? You seem perfectly able to justify the actions of Allied soldiers by pointing out that Germany was the one perpetrating aggression and injustice, but you forget that WWII Germany was perfectly able to justify the actions of their soldiers by appealing to the injustices wrought upon them by the victors of WWI. In history there is not often any clear aggressor... it is more often the result of a gradual buildup of tensions than any singular declaration of war. I'm absolutely not a Nazi sympathizer, and it does no credit at all to your argument to say that I am, because I'm pretty sure that nobody I know in real life or on this forum would ever make that connection based on my past stances in debates. The point is that you are taking only one side of a cycle of vendetta. If one side is justified, so is the other... if one isn't, then neither is the other. War crimes are not as clear cut as simply looking at their uniform and seeing what side they are on and saying one side was justified in beating a man to death but the other wasn't.

DJ, actually, I'm pretty sure that in the Geneva Convention protects prisoners of war, and in the situation of Inglourious Basterds where a Nazi soldier was bludgeoned to death, he was clearly their prisoner. Otherwise for Draugnar's case... is a soldier on leave considered a civilian at all?
Richard III (373 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
Sorry, my point #2 was chopped up.

Should read: "The reason the German soldier was able to take leave in Paris was because his army conquered it. When he was there, he was spending occupation currency which artificially inflated his purchasing power as part of a deliberate effort to pull extra goods and services out of France or other countries while maintaining an illusion of a voluntary economy." Etc.
Invictus (240 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
That's monstrous, Richard III. the Basterds committed a war crime by killing the German soldier with a bat. You just can't do that.

Your way of so dehumanizing the Germans is just as reprehensible as the thought process of the Nazis against the Jews. How on earth can you actually believe something so barbaric?
Chrispminis (916 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
"Why is everyone here so eager to find moral excuses to pity those wearing the uniform of a country that invaded a dozen others, but not a whiff of understanding for the actions of those who fought and died to defend, protect or liberate them? Honestly, it's surreal."

Do you really think we're Nazi sympathizers that are ungrateful for the soldiers who laid down their lives on the Allied side? I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm just saying that it's absolutely ridiculous to make a distinction between an English man beating a German man to death and a German man beating an English man to death. Their nationalities don't make their actions more or less reprehensible unless you ascribe to an us vs. them mentality, in which case it changes depending on whether you're German or English! It's not logically consistent!
Draugnar (0 DX)
28 Aug 09 UTC
@Dingle, et. al. - Beating to death is cruel and unusual punishment and is a violation of the Geneva Convention. Consider it as a form of death sentence. Killing an unarmed soldier who is not a threat is a violation of the convention. Subdue him and incarcerate him in a POW camp, or kill him if he has the means to fight back.. But killing a soldier who is no threat to you once he is subdued IS a war crime.
Draugnar, you expect the French underground to imprison a German in a POW camp? Seriously, you say that with a straight face??

Chrispi, I didn't see the movie, nor have any knowledge of the scene you are talking about. I was responding to Draugnar's 'german on leave in paris' scenario.
Draugnar (0 DX)
28 Aug 09 UTC
@Richard - What I said was that it not ONLY applies to society, but to war as well. And, no, vigilantism is not the same as revenge. Vigilantism is only seeking justice. Reveng is far worse as it seeks to get ahead. As I said, an honest man knows revenge does not taste sweet.

Killing a soldier (stationed or not is irrelavent) with a bat is a war crime. It si cruel and unusual brutality and murder. By your standards, we can do anything we want to the terrorists held at Guantanamo. After all, they flew two planes into the WTC towers and killed 6000 plus innocent people. But we are already prosecuting and sentencing their captors for crimes against them. Even a firing squad is considered a violation of the Geneva Convention. So if putting a bullet in the brain of an unarmed and defenseless soldier is considered a war crime, how much more so would be bludgeoning him to death. At least the bullet is instantaneous and relatively painless compared to feeling your bones break and drowning in your own blood and fluids as your lungs fill up.

Somebody needs to beat you to within an inch of your life so you can see why brutally beating a soldier is a criminal act. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies. If our enemy uses chemical warfare, should we do the same? The Geneva Convention expressly forbids it, but your argument is we can do whatever our enemy did to us.

Beating an unarmed and subdued soldier to death is NOT self-defense. As you said, it is revenge, but it is also a war crime.
Draugnar (0 DX)
28 Aug 09 UTC
The French Resistance committed many an atrocity, but the individuals who commited them either died in the process or were never identified. I leave God to judge them. But the movie portrays AMERICAN soldiers (officers even) commiting these attrocities. These American soldiers were there to defend and free Europe, but they wer still bound by the rules of war. They were soldiers, not repressed and slaughtered civilians, and were therefore under oath to abide by a higher standard. Have you been in the service? I served my time in the Corps and we had to take an oath at the recruitment depot before we even went to boot camp to abide by the rules of war and the Geneva Convention. These soldiers (were they more than just fictional characters) violated their oath to God and country.
SSReichsFuhrer (145 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
they werrent regular soldiers they were condemened soldiers whos last chance was to demoralize they enemy. war is war. but even in declaration of war one should observe the rule of politness.
Invictus (240 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
I hardly think you have anything useful to contribute to this discussion with such a name, SSReichsFuhrer.
Richard III (373 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
Leaving aside all of the other points for the moment, Draugner, whether you're correct or not depends a great deal on the situation - or in this case, on the scene in the movie. And I'm starting to feel a little ridiculous not because of my historical concerns, but because I haven't seen the movie, and this is Tarantino we're talking about. To repeat, is it likely that Tarantino is nuts and exploits violence shamelessly to sell movies, with little regard for 'historical context'? Sure. Different issue.

But to your historical point, a soldier in the uniform of a belligerent country is a legitimate military target under international law whether armed or not, not least because no one can be really sure whether he IS armed or not. With that problem in mind, the legal test for a war crime in that case - absurd, given the Second World War's circumstances, but whatever - carries as many obligations for the German as it would for the Allies in a similar situation. To obtain protection, the German would have to have clearly surrendered and been disarmed, or clearly been so incapacitated that defence was impossible. Unless either had happened, the use of any weapon not explicitly excluded on the German, repeatedly, would be completely legal and well within the traditions of even the most 'clean' of wartime situations. "Subdued" is only a legal issue after the soldier has actually surrendered or become incapacitated. I haven't seen the actual scene, so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage in not knowing what "subdued" means.

Although in the case of a uniformed WWII German soldier in France behind enemy lines (rather than in the case of Tarantino spilling blood for sport,) I'm not sure why it should matter so much. Surrender would be impractical and I don't recall many instances of the Germans going out of their way to extend the same courtesy to the "subdued" people of Rotterdam, Vinkt or Lidice, to take a few of hundreds of examples. If killing him with a bat would be the only way to prevent any more Rotterdams or Vinkts or Lidices, in an active step of European collective self-defence, :-) then it'd hardly be any more brutal to do it with a bat than it would be to do it with the butt of a rifle, sustained shrapnel or a commando knife in the belly, all of them "legal" weapons of war just like the bat in question.

Barbaric? Sure. War is barbaric even if fought with swords in scarlet uniforms.

Necessary? In that particular war, against that particular enemy, absolutely. The nationalities of who is killing who does make a difference, because one's national purpose is the reason for the killing. And the German national purpose was conquest, theft or genocide (depending on where), where the Allies' national purposes were defence or liberation, depending on the state and the front line in question.

Which makes the purpose of one killing so very different from the purpose of the other.

* * *

This is a x-post, so I'll respond to your question on service shortly, Draugnar.

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120 replies
denis (864 D)
30 Aug 09 UTC
iPhone diplomacy
The chat box won't scroll on my iPhone it's making it hard to conduct diplomacy
8 replies
Open
StevenC. (1047 D(B))
30 Aug 09 UTC
New Diplomacy 5.1: Allies vs Central Powers
Comments on rules......
8 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
28 Aug 09 UTC
TMG Masters Players- Check Your E-mail
As said.
17 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
29 Aug 09 UTC
Xapi Sirither LanGaidin zscheck mapleleaf Chrispminis Centurian Tru Ninja
Could the above players please respond to my Masters email.

Thanks.
13 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
30 Aug 09 UTC
Draw not going through
Is this due to the bug
3 replies
Open
texasdeluxe (516 D(B))
13 Aug 09 UTC
School of War III End of Game statements:
See below:
24 replies
Open
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