No, you arent'e, because bringing someone over from another site is not the same as bringing someone in from real life. PlayDip (FD's friend) is another site. FD doesn't know this person outside the web community any more thna I knew Crazyter beyond the USAK judge.

Secondly, there was more to SG's banning than just playign with someone he knew. There was real evidence of metagaming on at leats one of the two players' parts. And considering that SG offered to meta with me to get me points, well, as much as I like him, that was wrong.

No krellin, I ally based on the board, and the personality IN-GAME someone shows

@krellin - you ally with lots of other people you don't know too. The key is to have your reasons for the alliance be game related and not friendship related. I would ally with SillyPutty or Diplotard33 the same as I would with you (you know I like you whenyour sobver, right?) or hellalt (my favorite ranter of all, but a lot of fun!) or abgemacht (my pissing matches on the forum with him aside, he is a good player and I find my outcome better with him on my side). Whatever gets *you* the best result in game is what you shoudl do. If allyign with a friend is going to work toward syou getting a win, do it. If stabbing them will, do that. It's all in motivation. The only sketchy part is trying to evaluate a single instance. If the same alliance always occurs, it isn't a tretch to say this person is metagaming and allyign because of friendship, not game circumstances.

FD -- I wasnt' talking about YOU personally.

Eeee gads....both of you lighten the hell up man...I was being sarcastic to begin with -- even though it is a legitimate issue. "I brought this person from x" doesn't mean you don't have a gaming relationship with them. When I first went to vDip, Draug...you reached out to me and identified yourself...basically, that verged on "meta gaming". I don't *really* think it is, but some would.

Likewise if dude A invites dude B to this site and dude B really likes it here, it is not unreasonable to expect them 1. To play a game together and 2. for Dude B to instinctively, even subconsciously, show favoritism.

Is it a real, serious, issue? Of course not...but live in reality for a second and you will have to acknowledge what I am saying is true.

You, draug, used our relationship here to form a relationship in vDip and stab me. Good for you..it worked brilliantly and I applaud your skill. It would not have worked if I hadn't have known who you are first from here.

It still goes back to intent, krellin. My stab on vdip was game circumstances. My intent in letting you know who I was had nothign to do with trying to take advantage of it in game.

But yes, it is a slippery slope and great care must be taken.

Oh, then I apoligize.

But i do agree with this post, mostly. I myself am MORE likely to stab friends, simply so I can watch them flip out :-), so it isn't a hard rule. Tyran knows just what I'm talking about

And with mods like xultar being shitty and dismissive to people (see the thread I just posted within the last hour), I can also see that we may need to start gringing in Kestas for secondary calls.

Draugnar, I get Zultar's point in dismissing your thread. Use the proper channels to reach the mods

I was asked to post an apology. I did so. Verbatim. And I said "lock it, fine" but I felt zultar had no reason to go off on the thread with his "bombarded by emails" bullshit. Either they want to be contacted by email, which means living with the "bombardment" or not. But to publicly lambast someone for sending them emails when that is their preferred method of contact, or so they claim, is total fucking bullshit and zultar should apologize for bieng such a fucking asshole.

Intent...you'r may be honorable...I'm just saying I was personally swayed by knowledge of who you were, hoping for a strong alliance built on that relatioship. I'm not alone in this behavior, I suspect. Which is why, overall, accusation of "meta gaming" for external relationships are just plain stupid, because unless you are a robot or it's your first game and you've never been on the forum, most people will "meta" game in your diplomatic relationships with people...not consciously, but when weighing to arguments equally presented a decision in the brain will eventually rely on gut...your meta-experiences...

Other times it will be blatant, such as in the only game I ever played with Obi, in which he openly rallied players against me in the game because of forum posts.

krellin, my guess is obi's posts were tounge in cheek. Game link?

FD - you denied you meta-games and then just said you do in that your behavior modifies with friends...<sigh...>

FD - The game was reviewed by moderators and cancelled and Obi and I were both punished. They were *NOT* tongue-in-cheek in the least.

where? I said IF ANYTHING (at least I meant to). If you look throughout my games, I stab and ally when needed. Even after SG and I played our first game together (and hated each other after it) I tried to ally with in the 100 thousand games.

Well you must have done something too then

Who remembers that Bernstein guy? Now THAT was some metagaming

FD said "I myself am MORE likely to stab friends, simply so I can watch them flip out "

An admission of meta-gaming...

Well, on that I agree. We all meta subconciously. The key is whether we make a concious decision ot ally or attack for reasons outside of the game. One doesn't control their subconcious and the influence it has on tilting the balance in decisions we make. But was can recognize when the subconcious is havign a profound effect and choose to listen ot it, turning it into a concious decision, or try to ignore it and go on about the decision with that little voice only coming into play if all other things are equal.

For instance, all things being equal, I will ally with hellalt - and then stab the fuck out of him when the time is right to get a hellalt rant going. But, if the factors weigh into survivng if I stay tru eot him, I will never stab, despite wanting to see the rant. And if the factors of surviving or winning mean going at him early and never really allying, I will do that as well. that is the difference between letting your subconcious tilt the balance when even and letting your concious go with the sub even if it is not to your best interests.

I was going to go point out games where you said you would meta against me, but I feel no need.

And I meant to say IF ANYTHING. Please look through my games, and find where I stab someone because of other games. I have even had a good alliance with Tyran: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=101927#gamePanel

FD - I did do something, I also openly admitted it to the mods when interviewed - something which Obi did not have enough integrity to do. I actually suggested that we deserved to be banned, but instead was punished with loss of points. Obi and I had out-of-game conversation via email about the on-going game -- essentially negotiating off-line, meta-gaming. But his behavior was to actively recruit within the game and set up alliances purely based upon forum likes/dislikes without word one of strategic importance or plans for the alliance. That is why the mods cancelled the game.

FD -- read my posts. I openly admit that people meta, *particularly* in league play where victory is determined across a number of games. I'm man enough to admit it. I admit that how I play against Draug today is different than I played him the first time because I know him now...thus I meta-game every time I paly against him because my decisions are shaded by my knowledge of him and his skills with deceitfulness....

I am refering to the B League which we are in together. THe one where you called on everyone to attack me and YHN in every league came because we didn't cancel

Yeah... welcome to Webdip! Woohoo!

well, we did give an idea of what webdip forums are like! :-).

Just need Putin in here now

Demmahom Welcome!!!! now your part of this big happy forum family of haters XD ;)

That;s an iffy situation. The leagues allow some metagaing anyhow. But how much is some... If you have a concern on it, FD, I suggest taking it to Orathaic. Email the mods, but preface the email with "League decision for Orathaic) and he can look into it.

Obi and YJ and PE would make this party complete

Yes FD....what of it? The *league* game had multiple NMR's and became a joke. It deserved to be cancelled, instead of having a couple players benefit from NMR's and CD's. Since players were choosing to capitalize on NMR's in league play, I thougth it apprioriate to rally troops against you to balance out your advantage in the league in future games. League games, by definition, are meta-games.

If you don't like what I did, have a mod review it.

But stop talking about an active game, please. (Yes, I just did too...so now we are both cheaters)

Please check the League rules. Cross-game alliances are AGAINST THE RULES. That is what you called for. I will not be emaiing mods the because krellin is the only one taking it seriously

and I believe I heard two players in the same League talking about the game wasn't against the rule.... right Draug?