Zmaj, when you wrote, "I'd love to hear other people's opinion on this," did you want to hear others opinions so you could tell them they are wrong?

I would prefer not to have cheating accusations in threads. But, I don't think I would care either way.

I think by next year Zmaj will be top of the Hall of Fame ......... he's a Geezer !!

Cheating is unfortunately one of those situations where you really are better off letting the moderators sort it out. Attempting anything on your own initiative will inevitably have the unfortunate side effects inherent to vigilanteism. If you are indeed a strong proponent of anti-cheating measures, you could probably best help by reinforcing the efforts of the authorities, rather than undertaking your own measures, including but not limited to public forum accusations.

If you feel that strongly about it, why not apply to be a moderator? I think that a couple of extra moderators might actually help the situation a bit, provided that they were to exercise a good measure of judicial restraint.

TheGhostmaker,

"In other words, you need to make a case as to how allowing cheating accusations would make substantial improvements to not only this forum, but this website as a whole." It's my belief that my freedom of speech is more important than your reasons for restricting it, which are surprisingly weak, I must say. Bad consequences do not make the action itself bad, you should be aware of that.

"It is notable that the rule is largely in place to protect people who are accused but innocent from being penalised in-game." How is that? Moderators keep telling us that they ignore the cheating accusations made in the forum. So it can't be the reason for the censorship rule, can it?

Ahhh... I'm starting to bore myself. Maybe I am a geezer as Nigee says. Still, the moral of the story is don't obey the laws blindly.

Zmaj, what benefit do you think there would be to posting cheating accusations in the forum?

Unless the accused admits to cheating (and isn't being sarcastic), the mods will still need to do their investigation behind the scenes for anything to come of it.

Sounds just like an easy way to begin a witch hunt to me.

Cheating accusations on the forum affect not only the accised but alter the course of anus games they may be in.

And it is not an open topic. It has been discussed ad naseum and is forbidden for good reason. The is not a publicly owned web site but is Kestas's private domain. Respeft hsi rules and follow them blindly or go the fuck away.

Wow, the typos I produce after a couple bourbons.

It's the same as us telling you when we punish people. Doing so just causes unneeded drama and damages the reputation of the victim, whether it is warranted or not.

You can argue all you want, but unless you can prove some pretty sweeping advantages, this policy won't change.

Poozer, after playing a game where there was blatant cheating, you can't discuss the game in a sensible way because you can't mention cheating. This leads to an awkward silence while people write mails to mods. It's silly.

Draugnar, I don't think Kestas will let you suck his dick, so you should quit trying.

No, zmaj, bit you can deep throat my thirteen inches, fucktard.

Fortknox, can you imagine the EoGs?

"Uh, that was a strange game, wasn't it?"
"Yeah... Uh... Written any mails recently?"
(cheater:) "What, nobody's congratulating me on my victory?"
"You che... Ummm... I mean, we'll talk about this later, okay?"

@Znaj,

"It's my belief that my freedom of speech is more important than your reasons for restricting it"

You need to defend that belief. So far, you've only said "freedom of speech", without explaining why it is relevant in this context. I agree that freedom of speech is an excellent thing, but I think that we are currently considering a situation which is orthogonal to the benefits of freedom of speech, if that way of phrasing it means anything to you.

"Bad consequences do not make the action itself bad, you should be aware of that."

The site rules are not about some grand ethical principle. They are about making a diplomacy site that works, which is why I am focused on bad consequences for my argument.

""It is notable that the rule is largely in place to protect people who are accused but innocent from being penalised in-game." How is that? Moderators keep telling us that they ignore the cheating accusations made in the forum. So it can't be the reason for the censorship rule, can it?"

To clarify, I mean that we want to avoid them being penalised /by the accusation affecting the play of the other players/.

Moderators don't respond to accusations on the forums because of record keeping concerns (having emails about previous investigations helps us with future investigations) and because we don't want to create an incentive for posting the applications here.

"Poozer, after playing a game where there was blatant cheating, you can't discuss the game in a sensible way because you can't mention cheating. This leads to an awkward silence while people write mails to mods. It's silly."

I'm not sure writing EoGs while a cheating accusation is just being investigated is a good idea:

i) If the guy is guilty, there isn't much to say in an EoG, other than "a guy cheated"
ii) If he is innocent, the EoG will be much better when it happens /after the investigation as shown him to be innocent/.

TheGhostmaker, what you said about EoGs rings true. Okay, you convinced me. I'm dropping my proposal, at least in this form.

Draug, are you that Jewish guy with the worlds biggest dick?

The problem with not allowing cheating accusations is that reporting them to the moderators is much slower than typing a bunch of shit on the forum, and instant gratification is much better even if the final result is not as compelling. Did I sum up your complaint there, Zmaj?

I have been cheated.
I DEMAND JUSTICE!
but justice is slow.
So I post about it on the internet.

@cspieker

In fairness to Zmaj, that is an absurd strawman of what he said.

Cspieker, God knows why, but I can't get mad at you. Maybe I got used to you. It dulls your attacks, old boy.

I don't get what his complaint is. The demand of "free speech" in the discussion of something as ultimately meaningless as who won a game on the internet is ludicrous, thus I believe it to be merely a rationalization.

I have been in games where I am pretty sure that cheating has occurred. When that happens I get mad, and I want JUSTICE right NOW! Writing to the moderators, who quite often take days to even reply to you, just seems too slow. I am projecting my own feelings onto the person of Zmaj, I admit.

BTW, my remarks are not meant at all to complain that the mods take too long. I am quite pleased with their performance in what is probably a difficult job. I just meant to convey the feeling that justice can be slow (but them's the breaks).

Zmaj, you can't get mad at me because 1) I am a wonderful guy, and 2) deep down, you know I am right.

FWIW I thought your alleged cheating accusation that started all this was very mild and thought the quick and harsh reaction to it must indicate that the mods have a burr under their saddle right now. A good time to lay low pardner.

The homepage version of the last post looked like this:

"Zmaj, you can't get mad at me because 1) I am a wo..."

It would be too good to be true, but I was hoping anyway, God have mercy on my soul.

BTW, how do you apply to be a mod? I mean, it would help to have more mods, so that cheating cases would be processed quicker and Zmaj's complaint could be resolved.

You don't apply. They have a list of people they think woild be worthy and when they decide they need another one they discuss who on the list to invite. Most people who would apply are actually the one's they *don't* want.

How much money was involved?

about five thousand D-points.

@djakarta97 -
What Draug said. No one applies and gets it (though there was one exception). We look for people that are active and know the game and active in the forum, but, most importantly, have a level head, don't lose control, see both sides of the story, can stay cool in an argument, and can keep an open mind.
We keep a list when we see people like that.

Speed in which problems are resolved depends on the day. Sometimes we get a lot, sometimes we get few. Sometimes some of the mods are busy (we do this in our own spare time for free), sometimes mods are very active with cases. Also some cases take longer to resolve than others. We almost always have a communication with the accused to see their side of the story, and sometimes the emails back and forth take time because of different timezones and schedules.

More 'cooks in the kitchen' isn't necessarily the answer in this case...

I'm glad it for this thread because it seems to have highlighted to a new set of players (again) fairly well why cheating accusations should not be public.

Fair and due process is a far healthier environment to exist in then one in which vigilantism prospers.

The 'real world' parallel for this issue would be if pedophiles were accused publicly - such a thing would have virtually no benefit at all. If you want accusations to be dealt with seriously and fairly, rousing a lynch mob is not going to do that. As the mods have said before, people are within their rights to discuss cheats on the forum once they have found to have done so (as the thread on Agent K proved) but, as others have outlined, there is no benefit to discussing rumours and accusations before someone has had the chance to be heard.

I think credit should be given to Zmaj for changing his mind. Too often people on here take a position and then stubbornly refuse to change that position irrespective of how the discussion goes.