You're missing the point. You don't *have* to know how to fake a screenshot. All you have to do is deny you said it and claim the screenshot was a fake. That takes no special knowledge on anyone's part, and immediately casts doubt upon the person. I'm honestly not certain how one could be unable to conceive of the mere possibility that an image posted on the Internet doesn't reflect accurately to real life in an era of endless airbrushing on every photograph ever printed, and that to me is - again - akin to banning copy-pasting because a player cannot conceive of someone being able to fake a copy-paste.

redhouse, here is my opinion on the matter.

1. There is no rule specifically against it. I don't use screenshots, I'll explain why later. But the rule question first. You can define meta-gaming in any way you want, but in the rules, it's defined as "mak[ing] alliances for reasons outside a game, such as because you are friends, relatives or in return for a favour in another game." It says nothing about spy tactics and falsifying information, such as doctoring screenshots.

2. I don't worry about screenshots, and I don't use them. Why? Because they are so easily falsified. I assume that players on this site are aware of how extremely easy it is to falsify a screenshot, so there's no point in me sending one. It would only make me appear suspicious and raise anger against me. If I get a screenshot, I immediately disregard it for this reason. I assume that a player receiving a screenshot with my press in it will react in the same way. Why? Because believing a screenshot is, and I'm sorry if this is offensive to anyone, quite frankly stupid. Not knowing how easily screenshots on the INTERNET are edited is just ignorance.

3. Only my opinion here. The vague and few rules of the original game allowed players to be very creative in spying and manipulating others. I don't want things on this site to be declared against the rules unless it becomes a big problem, because paranoia about rules inhibits creative thinking. I'd leave it up to the players to use common sense in cases such as these.

no, PE, YOU are missing the point, because you're putting the burden of this problem with the person who is IMPLICATED in the screenshot (who now has to take the trouble of denying) or the person RECEIVING the screenshot (who now has to take the trouble of first seeing what was sent to him and then pretend it never happened) and not with the person SENDING the screenshot who is the METAGAMER. In ANY law system, ATTEMPTS at doing something wrong is punished, the question whether the attempt was done successfully AGGREVATES the alleged crime but doesn't call it into existence.
That's like saying "You can TRY to steal someone's car keys, because EVERYBODY knows that you NEED your car keys in a SECURE place where they can't be stolen." NO, you can't even try to steal car keys even when it's obvious they should be in a place where they can't easily be stolen.

You don't even need to deny that the screenshot is real. You have so many options. So suppose B sent C a screenshot of his press with A. The question C has to ask himself is "How much can I trust B? How do I know the idiot isn't sending screenshots of my communications to A?" Sending screenshots is a dangerous tactic, and can get you burned for being a rat-out. Now suppose C accosts A and tells him he knows exactly what A said to B. A has a multitude of options. The immediate one is to say the screenshot was false, which might be met with a demand for a screenshot from A's end, which can get uncomfortable. You could say you lied to B, you could call B an idiot who rats out information and swear you'd never work with him again, all while still holding your cards close. Who and what does C trust? Same old problem, nothing has changed.

As has been said, the ease with which a screenshot is sent versus the (small) effort it takes to make a convincing fake, does tip the balance of probability towards players believing they are real. And I say that as a l33t-uber-hacker-guru-bofh.

I don't believe its practical to ban this practice, its just really sad "How far will people go just to win a stoopid game".

"reasons outside a game"
Exactly, and you can base your alliance on the imgur file, the imgur file is found OUTSIDE the game like I explained a billion times, on a different website than webdip, so OUTSIDE, and for that reason it should her illegal. It is an attempt to present something OUTSIDE the game, a URL that is not a derivative of webdip.net, to influence the game.

If ever there was a case of meta-gaming this is one.

"As has been said, the ease with which a screenshot is sent versus the (small) effort it takes to make a convincing fake, does tip the balance of probability towards players believing they are real. And I say that as a l33t-uber-hacker-guru-bofh."

^Exactly, fiedler I can't understand how hard this type of reasoning is for some of you.

*Exactly fiedler, ...

That has to be the stupidest interpretation of a rule I've ever seen. And you haven't responded to my plan of sending images byte by byte through press to be reconstructed at the other end.

also, it does take time to produce a fake, so if the screenshot is presented quickly during a 3 way conversation, it almost proves its authenticity.

lol santosh, santroll more like!

And you also ignored my post on the fact that you don't even need to deny the screenshot being real, you have a huge number of other options. This thread increasingly looks like a rant where you're not even open to contrary opinions, so I'm going to stop bothering very shortly.

@santosh, I'll tell you why. I have a life. I have a job. I have rent to pay and I have people to see. I can't spend all goddamn day trying to figure out. "Hmm.. i just received another URL, what do I do now. Hmm.. I just received byte by byte photographs, what software program shall I use to interpret that, and then, once I interpreted it, what should I..."

NO

I want this game to be PURELY about how GOOD I am at convincing other players, distorting what they say, paraphrasing, quoting, but not photographing, and it is for the exact same reason that I don't bring audio-material to FtF games which can ALSO be falsified.

It's simply a direction we don't - as a community - want to go in. Let's keep it reasonable and simple. No screenshots, just text. Alright? Mods, admin, kestasjk, have you reached a verdict?

@santosh

Thank you, I'll continue the discussion with people who have a life and aren't interested in this kind of playing.

" you're not even open to contrary opinions"

@santroll - thats because redhouse is right. The only problem is there's no way to stop it.

redhouse1938, I could just as easily argue that it is NOT outside the game. The screenshot, after all, depicts events _in the current game_. If the screenshot had press from a previous game, or someone's facebook page where the player beats up kittens, or whatever else that does not have to do with the current game, I'd call it meta-gaming.

To use President Eden's arguments, when you copy and paste someone's press, you use your computer's built in function to copy text into memory for pasting somewhere else. This is outside the game, outside the server. Is this meta-gaming?

I've had similar arguments before about audio recordings in F2F. The consensus, and very few have argued against it, is that if it's not explicitly banned in the rules or by the game master, everything goes. If a player wants to shoot himself in the foot by showing himself to be utterly unreliable, using any means to spread information, let him. Unless the admins of this page tell me that this is meta-gaming and against the rules, I'll keep calling sending screenshots stupid but won't argue against it.

And the question "You have a whole number of options" is repeated in my previous post MINUS 11, so keep up will you?

Except he isn't. I like that it's now denigrated to middle school "You can use a computer better than me, you must not have a life!" level insults though. And not a single citation of a single rule in favor of this ban has been presented, just a general claim that something is illegal (a false claim at that, a claim already refuted even, the refutation of which has not been rebutted) followed by a slew of ad hominems and angry yelling.

I've been saying over and over that the use of screenshots doesn't change the fact that the game is about how good you are convincing other players. The screenshot proves that you said something. It says nothing about your intentions behind saying it, that is where all the skill is. Deny, deny, deny. Convince people of your true, otherwise intentions. Don't throw a hissy fit because something nasty you said probably got leaked. Stop acting like the US Government.

PE: the fact that I don't quote the entire US constitution but simply "reasons outside the game" and then demonstrate that the imgur file is on a different website should be more than enough.
I apologize for being a little aggravated, but it's just that a game that I really enjoyed up until the "imgur-point" was completely ruined because of it.

"outside the server"

@vaft that's patently ridiculous, obviously the only way you are *supposed* to communicate with other players is with the game textboxs provided, thats common sense, and in the spirit of the regulations and *sportmanship* !!!

Honestly are we really having this conversation?
Sometimes...webdip people...I don't believe .... I know you. (< peter griffin voice)

@santosh, again, you are putting the BURDEN of this problem with the IMPLICATED and not the SENDING player. You shouldn't HAVE to deny the imgur content because it shouldn't be there to begin with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6aS72qqe9c&feature=related

ha!

^what fiedler said. Keywords: sportsmanship, spirit of the regulations, are we really having this conversation.

As I interpret the rules, I don't think it's illegal, but I do agree it probably should be, or in any case is highly suspect. "It was forged" just isn't the kind of thing anybody is going to believe unless they could forge it themselves.

Ah look, it's semck. Another reasonable person. I love what that does to my blood pressure.

I hope you realize the moderators have explicitly sanctioned the use of instant messaging clients outside the site between players engaged in a full press game. There's explicit precedent FOR using extra-site means to communicate, *provided the communication is within the rules of the specific game.*

You're right, we shouldn't be having this conversation. Your case is as completely dysfunctional and bankrupt as it possibly could be.

Also, keep up the sportsmanship chants while your side incessantly hurls insults at the others. Real classy.

Sorry, rh, I wasn't trying to upset you -- in fact, I kind of was under the impression I was taking your side.

"redhouse1938, I could just as easily argue that it is NOT outside the game. The screenshot, after all, depicts events _in the current game_. If the screenshot had press from a previous game, or someone's facebook page where the player beats up kittens, or whatever else that does not have to do with the current game, I'd call it meta-gaming."

Vaftrudner, seriously, did you just type that, or did the letters assemble themselves randomly? This is such nonsense. You already ASSUME that it's a true depiction of the game which is not necessarily the case. The point is, that question /should never have to be asked/.