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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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abgemacht (1076 D(G))
18 Oct 11 UTC
Mod Policies
So, there has recently been some confusion/criticism about how mods handle cases. Without talking about any specific cases, I'd like to review how we handle different cases and the reasons for it. Hopefully, this can turn into a productive discussion, since this site is community-driven.
76 replies
Open
Mack Eye (119 D)
19 Oct 11 UTC
New 10-day phase game
Do you choose evil ways instead of love?...

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=70368
0 replies
Open
Cockney (0 DX)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Gunboat and the
Why the hell can't people press the ready button in gunboat games?????

its not like they are waiting for an answer to a message or anything
its ridiculous. If they want to wait because they cant play in the next phase or something, then they shouldn't have agreed to play in the game in the first place with that phase length
16 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
Porn from feminist perspective
Here discuss feminism with emphasis on misogyny and the morality of pornography. Give me your views and moral justifications. Thanks.
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Thucydides (864 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
Okay guys let me try to specify what I am thinking of then if it isn't coming across.

I'll use much more anecdotal terms to simplify this.

Go to any regular porn site, just type free porn in google and to the first hit. In fact I will do that right now so that I am giving real world evidence and not just making shit up:

Some porn titles I see:

"Perfect Alexis Amore wants you to fuck her"
"Chubby brunette gets her ass stretched"
"Fucking slut, I'm gonna kill you!"
"New Mom sucks cock to pay bills"
"Mina rides a 12 inch cock"

And here's one of the banner ads and so on:

"Real amateur teens discovered and exposed!"

Now... I also want to point out as if you didn't know this already that there *is* gay porn and female friendly porn, but its off on its own separate little tab that you have to go find.

Okay so what does this say to us? First of all, the description in hetero male porn is almost always one that describes sex as something that *happens to* the woman instead of something she's participating in. If you don't see how that is objectifying or misogynistic, well.... okay.

The one about "paying the bills"? Clearly a turn on there is supposed to be that this woman does not *want* to do the sexual act, but is forced to by her circumstances. I don't know if the title is referring to her paycheck from the actual porno or if it is a plot point within the porno, but regardless clearly some part of the erotic appeal is that this is an unwilling woman. Tell me, how is that and the above-mentioned process of "getting" fucked rather than "fucking" in any way discourages rape culture?

I could go on but you may I think be getting the picture. I am not all that interested in the makers of porn themselves, because they are going to do what they are going to do unless the government or the market stops them. I am interested instead in making value judgments about the state of the *content* of pornography and its potential effects on society.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
Well, to get even more specific - I feel I have never seen an example of pornography that is not misogynistic in my opinion. I also feel that non-misogynistic porn is perceived by most men to be less erotic.

So... that's mostly the moral dilemma I'm getting at here. On a personal level, what is the moral response to this?

What I'm getting at: is consuming misogynistic porn wrong and if yes for what reason.
Yonni (136 D(S))
16 Oct 11 UTC
I think that the amount of porn directed at hetero-men speaks louder to the sexual repression of women than anything else. If women watched more porn then the porn industry would make more porn for women (or visa versa.. chicken? egg?). That being said, "Mina rides a 12 inch cock" sounds like something that could be marketed as girl-friendly porn - however, I'm obviously not an expert on that and feel like a bit of an idiot for talking about things that I clearly don't know about.
Cachimbo (1181 D)
16 Oct 11 UTC
Go see one of Candida Royal's flicks and tell me if you "see" the difference.

I'll assume you won't.

So the real question is: how do you know that it's misogynistic?

But another way of asking the question is this: if that's how you see it, if there's not many chances of there being porn that isn't misogynistic, and if, on top of it, you attribute a negative (moral?) value to misogyny, then isn't it obvious that it's wrong for YOU to watch porn in general?
Cachimbo (1181 D)
16 Oct 11 UTC
But remember: you're making a knowledge claim. You're saying you know porn to be generally misogynistic, thereby objectifying porn and its objects under that knowledge, shaving off its edges whatever doesn't fit under how you construct the object you discuss. In so doing, you're obfuscating many particularities, many cases that would prove you wrong. In so doing, you objectify almost all the industry workers as "agents of misogyny", women included. To me, that sounds as morally reprehensible and irresponsible as the objectification that is accomplished by misogyny.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
Cachimbo.... sigh. This thread is not doing for me what I would have liked.

Can *you* be a little less obfuscating and tell me what you actually think of porn, personally?

I'll go first - I think male centric porn is the most popular kind of porn with hetero males. Why? Because all people are selfish. In bed maybe you try to be more equal because, you know, that's a real person there, but with porn why not just cater to yourself?

The only thing I wonder about that is: does doing that over and over not begin to shape the way you think?

I think something that is misogynistic would be something that implies female inferiority. So while you can probably make porn that is non-misogynistic, it wouldn't be easy. I think many forms of porn are probably effectively impossible to make without being misogynistic, like POV fellatio or bukkake. If you disagree with this go ahead, but for the sake of this thread let's just take those two specific cases and ignore the rest. I want to talk about the morality of POV fellatio and bukkake, please.

Is it misogynistic, in *your* opinion? I'm really not here to express my own opinions, because they are ill-formed, I want to form some, so tell me what you think.

If it is, does that make it bad to get off to it? If not, why not? If it's not misogynistic necessarily, how is it that it's not? If it's bad to get off to it, what is the proper response to it? Censorship? Boycott? Awareness raising campaigns? What?
Thucydides (864 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
^ Further, what do you then tell people who *do* get off to it?
mapleleaf (0 DX)
16 Oct 11 UTC
Men own and control EVERYTHING. Therefore our point of view is the only thing that is relevant. Hairy legged and hairy armpit lesbia..errrrrrrrrr feminists count for nothing.

On the plus side, most of them are vegetarians(lesbians are VAGitarians. lol.), so more steak for me!
Onar (131 D)
16 Oct 11 UTC
I dunno, I think that things like POV fellatio and/or bukkake can be empowering to women. I mean, it depends on the attitude a woman takes to it, and it isn't necessarily always empowering, but it can be a statement to a woman's power to pleasure a man. When you think about it in those terms, a woman is in fact more powerful, because she is exerting her power over the man, in terms of pleasuring him, whereas the man(or men) aren't exerting any power over the woman.
I doubt that has any real relevance, or, in fact, is much of an argument, but it's some food for thought.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
I've heard that argument before of course, and you can say it, but I think unless that's what everybody thinks it is (it's not) then it doesn't mean much.

It's like if you say: "Jesus was an animal."

I mean YES, technically he was. People don't tend to think about him in those terms though, so it's not that important to any discussion about Jesus.. if you kind of see what I mean about that.
semck83 (229 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
Well Thucy, I feel like my opinion probably can't be that interesting or useful to you, but since you ask...
sure. I think pornography is demeaning to everybody involved -- it glorifies selfish sex, as you point out, and encourages people (in the cases you're talking about, men) in their fantasies of sex as power and self-gratification. I can not cite studies (and almost surely there are some going both ways), but it's hard for me to imagine how this does not impact real life.
I suppose the opinions expressed above about it actually being demeaning are controversial. I'm not really sure what to say about that. Would anybody think it was a good idea for race relations if videos were made of white people putting black people in chains and treating them as slaves, and thousands of red necks downloaded the videos and watched them all day? I think such "art" would be _very clearly_ highly offensive and demeaning to everybody involved in the production or watching of it. (Obviously, I am not talking about artistic portrayals of slavery in a broader context).
What to do about it? Well... don't use porn. This presumably is hard, but what of highest value isn't? The question is, is it worth not debasing yourself.
As for your attitude toward those who do. As far as I'm concerned, it's a free country, and I don't feel impelled to go about telling people that I think what they're doing is wrong and debasing of themselves. On the other hand, if they ask, I'll say so (which is why I'm responding).
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Oct 11 UTC
The idea that porn is not misogynistic violence against women masquerading as entertainment because women "volunteer" for it is as asinine as the idea that restaraunts like Hooters and Twin Peaks are not degrading because after all, women apply to work there.

A prescient quote on this facile argument is the following:

"When your best choice is taking off your clothes and sticking toys in your cunt for money, I think there's a real problem with the labor system."

-Ex-performer Sarah-Katherine Lewis, in The Price of Pleasure.

The number of testimonies from ex and current performers who experienced sexual assault on a regular basis is as astounding as it is horrifying.

And, pornography has legitimized rape to such an extent that while cities have experienced declines in other forms of violent crime, rape rates continues to climb.



Mafialligator (239 D)
16 Oct 11 UTC
Ah, this is such an interesting discussion. And one I've heard before. I'm really not sure where I stand on the issue. On the one hand I tend to hold views that are very "sex positive" in terms of feminism and related issues. On the other hand I do think the anti-porn argument has developed much stronger arguments for their points than the pro-porn ones. On the other hand, I suppose the middle ground lies in the idea that the misogynist, violent aspects of porn are not necessary characteristics of the medium but instead a reflection of the society in which it exists. That is to say that the problem is the culture of the porn world, rather than anything intrinsic to the idea of pictures or videos of people engaging in sexual activity for the purpose of arousing the consumer. The counter argument to that is to question whether porn would exist at all absent the systematic power differential that exists between men and women, or whether the very idea of porn is a result of a sexist and misogynist society. It seems to me that porn probably would exist even if sexism didn't exist, but that's just so counter-factual that anyone's views on the matter are completely meaningless.

Alternately you could argue that the idea of someone consuming pornographic material at all creates a power imbalance regardless of their respective genders. But the implications of that are a little more difficult to parse and I'll need some time to think about that.
Sargmacher (0 DX)
16 Oct 11 UTC
Thucydide's half troll/half intellectual posts are getting almost as laughable as Tettleton Chew's spewings.

I love the random 'porn quotes' that Thucydides 'found' that so coincidentally proves his point. Thucy, if you could provide a link for the porn title you quoted as "Fucking slut, I'm gonna kill you!" that'd be great because otherwise this, as you style it, 'anecdotal evidence' isn't worth anything at all. It's really easy to exaggerate, as you do, to make your points but making up your own evidence like that - "Fucking slut, I'm gonna kill you!" porn is just laughable.

"Cachimbo.... sigh. This thread is not doing for me what I would have liked.
Can *you* be a little less obfuscating and tell me what you actually think of porn, personally?"

Cachimbo gave GREAT answers to your initial question linking porn to feminism - if you wanted a more general morale debate on porn you should have said so.

This thread completely ignores all the female dominatrix porn that is out there. And besides, as someone has already said, porn is a fantasy. It's just as unhealthy for people to spend consecutive hours and hours playing MMORPGs that also warp people's distinction between fantasy and reality - for every rapist that raped because of the sick porn Thucydides is quoting, there is a kid who is shooting up his school/attacking some innocent person because he played too much on his video games.

There are always going to be extreme examples but they are just that: extreme examples. If you want to debate the morality of porn then Thucydide's extreme personal example of "Fucking slut, I'm gonna kill you!" porn doesn't have a rational place in the discussion. At least discuss the issue from all angles, not just the particular angle that best serves your opinion. It's reductive and self-patronising because it highlights your failure to grasp the complexities of the issue.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
" On the other hand, I suppose the middle ground lies in the idea that the misogynist, violent aspects of porn are not necessary characteristics of the medium but instead a reflection of the society in which it exists. That is to say that the problem is the culture of the porn world, rather than anything intrinsic to the idea of pictures or videos of people engaging in sexual activity for the purpose of arousing the consumer. The counter argument to that is to question whether porn would exist at all absent the systematic power differential that exists between men and women, or whether the very idea of porn is a result of a sexist and misogynist society. It seems to me that porn probably would exist even if sexism didn't exist, but that's just so counter-factual that anyone's views on the matter are completely meaningless."

lol yeah. i agree.
Mafialligator (239 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
I suppose then Sargmarcher, what we would really need is a comprehensive content analysis of readily available pornographic materials to see whether Thucy's, admittedly unscientific, observations are representative of all pornography or just an aberration due to his small sample size. Surely such a thing must exist given the amount of scholarly debate on the issue.
Sargmacher (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
"I think many forms of porn are probably effectively impossible to make without being misogynistic, like POV fellatio or bukkake."

I don't know what POV fellatio is so I can't comment on that but I would argue that bukkake is not inevitably misogynistic. Just because it appears that way to you does not mean that is the way it appears to everyone else.
Perhaps:
1. The woman/man enjoys and wants to be covered in the semen of more than one other partner.
2. The woman/man may enjoy being submissive to other sexual partners.
3. The power play is one of bluff - have you ever thought that the men are turned on because the woman/man is LETTING them ejaculate on her/him?
4. Unless the 'recipient' in bukkake porn is physically restrained for the sexual act, which WOULD imply it being a forced act of misogyny, then one really should not assume that it is. If the person is not restrained in such a way then it implies that they are enjoying the act freely and willingly. For example, if they are smiling and look happy then the emphasis is not on the degradation of that person but on their willingness to enjoy and take part in what is just a fantasy act. Bukkake is not an every day occurrence and neither, I would imagine, is bukkake-misogyny - the focus is the sexual fantasy, if it was truly misogyny the female participants would be unhappy and abused but this is just not the case - apart from, alas, in Thucydide's extreme personal anecdotes of "Fucking slut, I'm gonna kill you!" porn.

In this respect, I would argue that 'porn' that involves single women doing acts like ironing, cleaning, and cooking are much more misygonistic - in a more latent but extremely damaging way.
The Hanged Man (4160 D(G))
17 Oct 11 UTC
In my opinion, anybody who questions the validity of Thucydides' "anecdotal" titles simply lacks experience with porn. His examples are absolutely legit titles and representative of popular free porn out there.

http://tuberip.com/videos/fucking-slut-im-gonna-kill-you-5495025.phtml

http://www.youporn.com/watch/333980/new-mom-sucks-cock-to-pay-bills/

Et cetera.
Sargmacher (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
@Mafialligator: Absolutely agree - I imagine the material/studies must exist somewhere, not that I am particularly eager to use my University library account to start making such searches. I just object to Thucydide's using his own porn experiences in that way - no one else seems to have heard of Thucydide's "Fucking slut, I'm gonna kill you!" porn and he has so far been unable to reference it - suggesting that it is either a falsified piece of evidence or, perhaps, a home-made piece of evidence by Thucydides himself. The latter reasoning would identity why the evidence cannot be sourced online and explain why Thucydides is the only one who knows of its existence.
Sargmacher (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
Hanged Man: Wow. That you so promptly provided that URL hilarious, for so many reasons.
semck83 (229 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
@Sargemarcher, Thucy said exactly how he got it. He said he googled "Free porn," went to the first site that came up, and that was one of the videos there. I followed his algorithm, and sure enough, there it was.
Sargmacher (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
But it doesn't necessarily prove it is genuine. I could easily provide you with links for:

http://www.happyporn.com/watch/334520/happy-girls-enjoy-sex-with-fun-husband

http://www.sluttube.com/watch/293280/wife-enjoys-first-time-bukkake-session-willingly-submitting
The Hanged Man (4160 D(G))
17 Oct 11 UTC
Yes, I have a magic porn portal called Google that allows me special access to locate whatever clips happen to resonate with my dark desires of the moment.

However, I do confess to being a high-quantity, high-quality purveyor of porn. That means I readily recognized Thucydides' examples as being valid.

I consider neither myself nor the genre misogynistic. I am quite sure there are plenty of misogynists both on the industry end and the consumer end.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
Sarg -

All the quotes I provided were taken from page one of pornhub.com, the first for "porn" on Google, accessed today.
Sargmacher (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
@smeg83: Ok thanks, I missed that. I then apologise to Thucydides for my jesting implication that he may have homemade the evidence himself.

My point still stands though, that Thucydide's highly selective choice of titles only served to articulate the point he wanted to make, not broaden the discussion objectively.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
Quite honestly I have to concur with Hanged Man here, even if you find it maybe a little gross, just trawl around some porn for a while, couple of hours, and play "spot the misogyny." You guys may change your minds somewhat. Yes I know there is harmless porn. Lol.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
And quite honestly Sarg I would be confident in the results of a more scientific study. My personal guess is that something like 30 to 40 of porn titles contain sexist degrading remarks against women, and this would also include gay porn just to dilute it some for your sake.
Sargmacher (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
No no, I accept that there will be porn that plays on a male dominant power relationship to women, as you suggest - but I just don't agree that that makes it misogynistic. Male misogynists are extreme cases and it is unlikely that it was the porn that made them so.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
I think your definition of misogyny might too narrow. I would argue that almost every Western male has latent patriarchy and misogyny even if he doesn't want it. My concern is that this type of porn accentuates/sows it.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
I also think that the set of all porn that plays on male dominance and the set of all porn that has sexist under- or over-tones would have a very large overlap zone.

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147 replies
fortknox (2059 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Major discussion topic...
"who would get Windsor castle if Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip split up?"
30 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
So Mr. V was actually Diplomat33.
More inside.
87 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
copyright violations?
So hasbro owns the rights to this game?
53 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
Animal Rights
Here discuss animal rights. Specifically with reference to animal testing and vegetarianism. Give me your views, and your moral justifications. Thanks.
66 replies
Open
SacredDigits (102 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
I guess I successfully predicted the future in the October ghost ratings topic
As of Friday, I was in four games. In the last 24 hours (well, 30 technically, but it's close) I received the following message three times: "You were defeated, and lost your bet; better luck next time!" Bye bye, highest GR spot for me to date. I've never been so soundly defeated so often in so short a time.
11 replies
Open
jpgredsox (104 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
The United States Shouldn't Have Entered WW2
The United States intervention in World War Two cost 418,000 American lives. And, really, what did the United States gain from it? Hitler was gone and Nazi Germany was destroyed, but much of Eastern Europe running from East Germany to Russia was under the (de jure or de facto) rule of Stalin and the Soviet Union. U.S. intervention fostered the spread of communism by destroying its primary opponent, fascism, thus setting up the Cold War for the next fifty years.
84 replies
Open
jpgredsox (104 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
The Octopus
I have always been intrigued by this opening (sev-->black sea,
warsaw-->galicia, moscow-->st pete's, st pete's-->gulf of bothnia) but have never really had the balls to try it out. Does anyone prefer this opening/has anyone won by this opening? Any general thoughts on its merits/detriments are welcomed.
9 replies
Open
vontresc (128 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Maps
Hi I used to use the email dip judges, and am rather new to the Webdip site. I really like the setup, but I'm not a huge fan of how the maps are drawn. is it possible to generate a "results" map without the arrows for a more uncluttered look?
6 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Hoe is het in Nederland?
Hoe is het in Nederland dan? Ik ben alweer een poosje weg daar. Hoe is het weer bij jullie? Zijn jullie ook dat gezeur van die Wilders zat of is ie nog erg populair bij sommigen? Ben benieuwd.
5 replies
Open
Cachimbo (1181 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Regarding Diplomat33's case; an open letter.
I'm having a hard time with the idea that he might be allowed to continue playing on this site.
30 replies
Open
thinker269 (100 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Question from new guy
Public messaging only: does that mean what I think-that we can only communicate on "Global"?

10 replies
Open
HavocInside (100 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
New fast pased game!
I am wanting to sit down and play a good game. I was wanting it to be 10-20 min for each turn. Bet only 5. It would be zero but it seems that is not allowed. I require 6 additional players. If you would like to play reply to this thread and spread the word. Once I have the needed players I will post the link to the game. Enjoy, looking forward to a game and have a good day.
0 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
18 Oct 11 UTC
The beat on D33 thread.
Have fun with it. It doesn't bother me at all. Just don't sink to profanities.
4 replies
Open
Ayreon (3398 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Irregular etiquette... cheating
In game Supper's ready France and Austria has a strange comportament:
Austria has 18 SC plus other 2 SC to conquer to France and win instead he does not finish the game leaving the SCs to France while France announces that he wants more England's SCs before Austria win...
It's not regular do I ask the intervent of moderators...
Thanks
1 reply
Open
kestasjk (64 DMod(P))
17 Oct 11 UTC
Male / female pay equality
I just read an article on the BBC, basically someone got sacked for saying women in New Zealand get paid 12% less, but it's because they need more leave (in particular he hinted at women's menstrual cycle as causing regular sick leave in some women)..
33 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
18 Oct 11 UTC
A word on trolls
If you see someone post something so ignorant, so enraging, so *wrong* that you just *have* to respond - the odds are they don't believe it and are just trying to get a reaction. Mute is your friend
18 replies
Open
Balaran (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
cheating!
when someone is playing 2 countries in a game or chatting to another player to co-ordinate moves in GUNBOAT, Is there anything that can be done to ban them. Ive checked there records and they have played together alot and the cheating is clear.
28 replies
Open
Fasces349 (0 DX)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Corruption in Texas
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/10/why_even_bother_consulting_the.php
2 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
Teen Diplomacy Tournament member list.
the list is below.
54 replies
Open
jpgredsox (104 D)
12 Oct 11 UTC
Young-Earth Creationism
I learned today that, according to polls, a solid 40-50% of Americans believe in Young-Earth creationism, the view that God directly made the Earth and humans (no evolution!) about 6,000-10,000 years ago. Yay for American intelligence!
160 replies
Open
Invictus (240 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Another Disgraceful Act by Chavez
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/17/us-venezuela-opposition-idUSTRE79G65T20111017

What else can you expect?
9 replies
Open
Tolstoy (1962 D)
14 Oct 11 UTC
Is the New World Order unraveling?
I am interested in the opinion of the community:
http://lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan189.html
20 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
18 Oct 11 UTC
Russia is my favorite nation to play.
And likely many of yours as well. Let those who smile at a successful triumph by the Tsar gather and show their support of the russian nation gather here in this forum.
9 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
Meat eating vs vegetarianism
Im doing a research project on eating meat, so i thought id poll the forum and see what it thinks.
32 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
My multi
Well, ill apologize to the community. I wasn't trying to gain points, just fool around in the forums. I hope the community will realize that. I will take what the mods decide to do with me. And i hope i am not shunned (thank goodness you are all not draugnar, j/k drag) Think about my situation here.
5 replies
Open
Emperor Napoleon (100 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
Worried about cheating...
I am very concerned that two players in a game I just joined are cheating, however I don't know how to take care of them. I see from another thread here that we can't post cheating accusations on the forum, so... what do I do?
8 replies
Open
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