Yep, but selective. Like Thomas Jefferson. Every school should be like that.

i disagree

@Santa -- Yes...as a matter of fact, I have taught 10th grade English! So shut the fuck up, moron!

@Geofram - "Teachers get paid shit" By what standard do you determine that teachers....who work less than 8 hours per day, and work half the number of hours as a regular full time worker...get paid "shit"? Teachers, when you compute their hourly salary AND benefits, get paid a *fantastic* amount of money with the bachelor's degree, and have benefit packages that the rest of society would kill for. You have *no* idea what you are talking about.

And before you start into "but they have have to grade papers, do lesson plans, blah blah blah..." Bullshit. Maybe the first year you teach you need to figure out what to do....and then it's pretty much reset and repeat. Yes, there is the grading of papers...but how many of our poor, deprived teachers do NOT have an your (or more) off every day -- their "planning hour" -- in which, if they aren't hitting on each other in the teacher's lounge might actually be grading papers? This nonsensical idea that they spend every night grading papers until midnight is bullshit propaganda spread by the Union!

@krellin - typical inarticulate republican response: You put words in my mouth to set up my argument as a straw man exaggeration and break it down. you are unable to fathom the actual scope of the problem, assume the solution is simple and blame the fact that reality doesn't measure up to your expectations on gotdanged libruls. It's how you folks handle the environment, financial regulation, and everything else, so why not education? i like that i have "never" offered a solution. when has this come up before here? have i been in a discussion with you on this topic? No, i haven't. don't start talking about me unless you have something factual to say instead of a bunch of fucking assumptions. asshole.

it's not the fact that they are being measured that is the problem. I never said that the teachers and admins are without fault. the rest of you that *are* capable of reading text and then accurately interpreting it will notice i didn't say these things. it's that student testing is a piss poor measure of showing what works and doesn't. The fact of the matter is that not every district is homogenous with every other. you are going to have bad schools filled with poor kids and those schools are going to do poorly based purely on student testing, lose funding and then do even worse. my wife taught in a great, upper class white people district and, on these tests, still managed to have a third of her students in her bottom-of-the-barrel class not even show up with a pencil for this all-important test. the rich white kids do great, and then as you go down the socio-economic ladder, it gets worse and worse.

the fact of the matter is that incentives and the free market is not the answer to every fucking problem. NCLB punishes bad schools which is exactly the wrong thing to do. how do you measure teacher effectiveness? well, it's hard. what makes a good teacher and how do you measure those things? obviously student performance is important. but there are more things that go IN to the equation of 'student performance' than just teachers' input. there is bad culture, bad towns, bad parents, and it's not right to base teacher pay on these things, the same way that it's not right to pay an emergency room surgeon less for losing more patients if he or she happens to work in compton rather than beverly hills. Obviously, I do not have a pre-made fully functioning answer to this problem, the same way that you don't. But just because i don't have 'good', doesn't mean we continue to go with 'wrong'. What we need is some balance between peer evaluation (like any group of co-workers, teachers know who amongst themselves knows what the fuck they are doing), classroom observation, and student testing.

@geofram You're basically right, except that NCLB testing covers school district funding, but teachers are paid by the state. the teachers don't get paid more based on their results, it's the funding for things like books, after-school programs and other things.

@krellin bingo. here's how i know you're full of crap:

@Geofram - "Teachers get paid shit" By what standard do you determine that teachers....who work less than 8 hours per day, and work half the number of hours as a regular full time worker...get paid "shit"? Teachers, when you compute their hourly salary AND benefits, get paid a *fantastic* amount of money with the bachelor's degree, and have benefit packages that the rest of society would kill for. You have *no* idea what you are talking about.

my wife taught high school math for FIVE YEARS and i never saw her work an 8 hour day once. not once. She gets PAID for 8 hours a day, but it was a rare saturday AND sunday when she wasn't grading or answering emails, or doing some mandatory unpaid training crap or someother god knows what bullshit. You have parent-teacher conferences before school. those start at 7 and 3/4 the time, the parent would bail but the teacher is there. unpaid. you have mandatory after school help. that's an extra hour every day. unpaid. that's 10 hours a day before grading even starts. lesson plans change every year because students change every year and curriculum requirements change every year.

And before you start into "but they have have to grade papers, do lesson plans, blah blah blah..." Bullshit. Maybe the first year you teach you need to figure out what to do....and then it's pretty much reset and repeat. Yes, there is the grading of papers...but how many of our poor, deprived teachers do NOT have an your (or more) off every day -- their "planning hour" -- in which, if they aren't hitting on each other in the teacher's lounge might actually be grading papers? This nonsensical idea that they spend every night grading papers until midnight is bullshit propaganda spread by the Union!

Ha! Planning periods are a joke. in my wife's school there was ONE copy machine. she worked in a RICH district. her planning periods were frequently spend eating a bowl of soup (also her lunch) standing up, waiting in line to use the copier. or answering emails from parents. or administrators. or watching someone else's class. or god knows what else. you really have no idea what it's like until you've either done it or observed someone else doing it closely, like i have.

@omg - <yawn....> If you explained yourself completely, we wouldn't have to make assumptions and put words in your mouth. But let's look at a few of your arguments, now that you have explained yourself.

"not every district is homogenous with every other. you are going to have bad schools filled with poor kids and those schools are going to do poorly " Wow....so, basically, you are saying that if kids are "ethnic" or "poor" then they are naturally inclined to be stupid and test poorly? That *IS* the implication of that statement. Or maybe it isn't the color or the poverty....maybe it's bd teachers and bad parents coupled with a liberal school policy that passes kids instead of holding them back, and that won't discipline kids. This whole "poor kids can't do well...." argument is NONSENSE. Seems to me Bill Clinton came from a poor, broken home....became President. If you listen to Obama's story, same sort of thing. So....hmmm....I think poor kids CAN do well if they apply themselves. IF they have teachers that apply tehmselves instead of MAKING FUCKING EXCUSES,

As far as whether this topic has come up before...I dont' know...but in this case, you made EXCUSES and offered NO SOLUTION....Your solution, implied by your statement, you fucking moron, is that standardized testing is bad, therefore we should eliminate it. that is IMPLIED by your complaint.

As for your wife teaching in blah blah blah....anecdotal bullshit. I guarantee you there are rich white kids that fail. As a matter of fact, I have TAUGHT a rich white kid that failed....because he had a shitty attitude, and his parents did give a shit, and he had been passed through one school after another without proving that he earned the right to pass on. Don't give me this bullshit, union propoganda that no rich white kid ever fails. It isn't a rich kid problem. It isn't a skin color problem....unless you are actually suggesting that race impact intellect???? Are you???? Are you, as a good liberal, proclaiming that without the white man's help, minorities - particularly blacks - can never make it on their own? Are you THAT much of a racist??? I believe ANY man or woman can make it on his or her own regardless of skin color or economic background, and I think assholes like you, that hand out the ready-made excuse ("It's not your fault! Your black, your poor...") are destroying this society!

As for my response being "inarticulate"....hmmm....well, you seemed to understand it enough to respond, asshole. Which makes you, on top of everything else, a fucking liar.

Krellin you are such a liar you have never taught and your responses prove it.

@omg -- You anecdote about your wife's work schedule is bullshit. Most school districts around here have days off for parent teacher conferences. None that I know of do not. Most of them have more equipment than they know what to do with...or that the teachers actually know how to use ( and this is not just my school district, but the surrounding REGION). The "she has to eat her soup standing up" line....oh, that is just GOLDEN bullshit. You actually typed that shit and think people will believe it?

Hell....most teachers beat the kids home that ride the bus. I go to pick my kids up after school sometime and I see some kids getting on the bus, and I see half the teachers are GONE already.

You are soooo full of shit it isn't even funny, man.

As for your 10 hour days....dude, when you lie, at least make it reasonable. NOBODY on this site believes that teachers put in 10 hour days. First and foremost, the unions would never allow it. Second, we have all been to school, and witnessed how much...or how little....teachers do.

1 rich white kid that failed? Only 1. you are so full of shit

@Santa....I'll go upstairs and scan some of the paperwork from when I taught. I actually kept some copies of some of the better papers my students wrote. As for you....I suspect YOU have never taught, and therefore have NO idea whether or not what I...or omg...is saying is true.

@santa....it was anecdotal, that kid that failed. Just like OMG's arguments are all ANECDOTAL, dumbass.

"As for your 10 hour days....dude, when you lie, at least make it reasonable. NOBODY on this site believes that teachers put in 10 hour days. First and foremost, the unions would never allow it. Second, we have all been to school, and witnessed how much...or how little....teachers do."

Almost every teacher puts in 10 hour days, they dont do it in school, they do the work at home, you have no fucking clue, this is ridiculous

But, santa, omg claims that all rich white kids succeed because they are rich and white, and all poor black kids are dumb. I'm responding to his anecdotal arguments with anecdotal arguments. Maybe you are too dense to figure that out.

just for reference everyone, Krellin in the past has claimed that he succeeded in the work world without a college degree through shear grit and determination. Im wondering what school system he taught in that accepts shear grit and determination in lieu of a degree

@Santa....and you know this...HOW????? what, are you sleeping with your Science teacher? lol what a gullible fool you are if you think ANY techer regularly puts in 10 hour days. And....EVEN IF THEY DID....they STILL do NOT work a full 2080 hour work year like the reat of society does. So...even with that argument, you FAIL!

@Santa --- PLEASE POST WHERE I SAID I DO NOT HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE. YOU ARE LYING NOW, BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT.

I GRADUATED FROM MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY IN 1991 WITH A DEGREE IN ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING, AND ENGLISH (HONORS).

I hope my all caps offended you. Please don't lie, Santa. I think you are better than that. I'm waiting for this imaginary link where I post that I made it without a degree...

I have cousins and friends who are teachers who are unavailable for months at end and I have taught at the college level and know that ridiculous amount of prep that is required for every class, and the mind numbing and tedious process of grading. Im not some conservative culture warrior who works off of assumptions and makes up false experience to lend a degree of legitimacy to his bogus claims

oh, i forgot to mention: teachers get paid for the 10 months of the year they are paid to teach, only that 10 months of pay is spread out over 12 months. they still get a paycheck in the summer, but it's not free, it's for the hours they already put in, but not for the others they put in over and beyond the school day.

you're an idiot, and i am done trying with you.

Oh....suddenly you are a teacher, Santa??? that's funny...And you have a plethora of friends and relatives, no less, that are teachers, and ALL of them spend mind-numbing, tedious hours in preparation! Oh my....oh my....this is terrible!!! Your fantasy claim is a little overblown, Santa.

Mine is real.

@omg -- yeah....they get paid all year for the work they did in 10 months....and those 10 months are chock full of holidays, etc. And your point? If you take a teachers pay, and then divide it by 2080 hours (the standard work year), you get a certain dollar amount per hour. You add this dollar amount per hour to their excessive benefit packages, and you will find that teachers, *in general*, make a hell of a lot of money compared to regular, non-government employees. There is no debate over this.

Time to make to the donuts. gotta go. You two liars amuse yourself while I'm gone.

And...to reiterate...this is 100% the teacher's fault.

I ENTER INTO EVIDENCE JUN 30 2010
a discussion between Dugualle and Krellin in the topic "Eho Hates America And Why"

"Degaulle 30 Jun 2010
oh so you are a teacher Krellin?
God help the American Youth- your writing here has nothing to do with the topic, and you seem to only know how to write one sentence at a time.
Perhaps you should go back to college(poor mans university)

Krellin 30 Jun 2010
I'm not a teach, you moron. I never said I was. Again....maybe you should try phonetics to learn to read.

MOCKING YOU."

Seems like I was mistaken and Krellin is an out and out liar!

I LOVE IT

In my area students in grades K-5 are not permitted to be held back unless the parents request it. I have seen neighbor kids that are reading at a second grade level but going into 5th grade. The parents seem to be more worried about the whispers of others than the education of their child. Parents have to be held accountable for the education of their kids, but this is a different problem. Our budget was passed last year that gave teachers more money, better benefits, and MORE time off, but eliminated such programs as...summer school. Every teacher that is caught should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Setting aside all the hatred flying around here, why don't we look at the social value of teachers. Providing universal, quality education is, without a doubt, one of the most important functions of a modern nation. The US is already a service-based economy that can no longer expect mere high school graduates to get good work, let alone any work. You must have a college degree in order to do anything that isn't monotonous or McDonald's-oriented. In order to get a college degree, you must know wtf you're doing in college, and this only happens if you've got a solid K-12 education that taught you how to think, write, and argue cogently.

This is the joint responsibility of parents, teachers, and administrators. Parents obviously don't get paid, but their involvement is essential, which is why successful schools often have lots of parental involvement. In wealthy districts, you get lots of Jewish, Asian, or other education-focused parents who do this without asking. In poor areas it's a lot trickier because the parents have 3 jobs or their backgrounds never prioritized education or made it look worthwhile.

This makes it all the more important to get smart, dedicated, compassionate teachers in the classroom and the front office. There are hundreds of thousands of people like this across the country, but the problem is not enough of them are willing to go from a lucrative private sector job to a $50k a year job where they'll have to deal with all of the extra work Santa and omg have described as well as a bunch of rowdy, often ungrateful teenagers.

So I would simply pose a simple (theoretical, of course) economic question to krellin: if you could raise teachers' salaries by $5-10k a year in order to draw a significantly improved caliber of teacher into the sector, would you do it?

Now before you shout about unions and liberal corruption, let me say that I fully agree that teaching unions are all too often more concerned with their own benefits than they are with their students' success, but let us assume that this increased income will exclusively go toward bringing competent teachers in and not toward paying some tenured old bag's inflated salary.

Oh and here's my anecdote: I've been tutoring high-need students since March and am moving in August to Newark to teach math and English at the Great Oaks Charter School for the immense sum of $7,000 for 10.5 months of work (I have been told to expect about 60 hours of work a week). I would love to hear someone argue that I'm improving the country by <1% as much as some piece of shit hedge fund manager is.

Also I would ask everyone to check their spelling and comma usage. The irony of screaming about education reform while using "its" instead of "it's" and "shear" instead of "sheer" is palpable.

@Furball: Don't be entirely disheartened. There isn't really an American Education System; public school is run on the state and local level. Federal funds generally only go towards special education programs. So there's no federal Education Ministry that can force changes onto the state public schools.

There's two sides to that coin, of course. On the one side, Atlanta is one of the worst public school systems, so this sort of fraud shouldn't be viewed as a reflection on American public schools as a whole. On the other side, it's very difficult to force systems like Atlanta's to change. No Child Left Behind was a step in that direction, and it's come under intense criticism ever since, much of it justified.

Ashley I've had experiences like that while tutoring. Seniors on their way to college were unable to form basic sentences and were totally lost when asked to put supporting evidence in a research paper. It made the fact that they plagiarized materials from various websites (and didn't know it) look almost inconsequential. I'm all for holding students back, but there's a strong argument to be made that if you held back everyone who needs it you'd just overload your 8th grade teachers and would give the trig and advanced English teachers nothing to do. The long-term solution is to improve teacher quality and fire corrupt admins who aren't passionately dedicated to sending every one of their students to a 4-year institution (even if you have to say "fuck it" to state test scores in the short-run [hence, kill NCLB])