Yeah, I don't see what's so terribly wrong here. It looks a lot more like a bureaucratic problem than a secret plot to round up all those goddamn... animal rights activists?

These people were obviously convicted of very serious crimes, so while I would admit the punishments seem a bit draconian I don't see a serious problem. Plus nuts like this Stephanian guy ought to be locked up anyway.

Dingle: "people have been using the 'slippery slope' theory for centuries now. I don't just don't see it."

Sicarius aptly described it: "secret prisons are a very large step in a very bad direction.
People always muse about nazi germany, or other fascist states, how does this happen? This is how it happens."

What part don't you see?

MLK summed it up well too: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"

Darwyn,
So that's your argument? Nazi Germany existed, therefore we must stop evolution of government now to avoid that slippery slope? The slippery slope argument has been used in EVERY COUNTRY in every decade since time began.

And again, how secret were these prisons? The wife knew where her husband was. Just bitching because she can't touch him.

Yes, MLK summed it up just fine. I don't see the injustice.

"In debate or rhetoric, a slippery slope (sometimes misstated as thin edge of the wedge, or the camel's nose) is a classical informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. Modern usage avoids the fallacy by acknowledging the possibility of this middle ground."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

My argument is that the existence of a secret prison does not evolve a Republic.

Anyone remember awhile back, I asked someone to come up with an example of a country that had secret prisons (examples I used for american secret prisons were the salt pit-afghanistan, never never land-ethiopia, as well as some other really shady places in eastern europe and central asia) that didnt eventually turn them on their own people.
y'all were pretty adamant back then that it wouldnt ever happen. now that it has you deny the importance of it? insanity!
es, his wife knew he was there, the prisons arnt secret as in the prisoners are dissapeared off the face of the earth (we're not doing that to americans yet, just brown people from poor nations) they're secret in that the government demonstrably tried to keep the knowledge of these prisons from the american public, even going so far as to go ahead with them in secret after being called out on it from human rights activists.

and YOU brought up the slippery slope argument, not me.
I'm not saying that because these CMU's exist, a year from now we're inevitably going to be heiling Obama. But what good could come of this? what bad could come of this?
I'm not saying 'it's a slippery slope' but this is a pretty obvious step towards the rhetorical bottom of the hill that is fascism.

"Nazi Germany existed, therefore we must stop evolution of government now to avoid that slippery slope?"

It would certainly help if our government wasnt looting the third reich for ideas.

Sicarius "and YOU brought up the slippery slope argument, not me. "

Seriously? I wonder if you even read what you write some times, or you just spout the first thing that comes into your head. Allow me to quote you.

"secret prisons are a very large step in a very bad direction. People always muse about nazi germany, or other fascist states, how does this happen? This is how it happens. "

THAT is a slippery slope arguments. You aren't so juvenile that you think that since you didn't actually use the phrase 'slippery slope' that you didn't invoke the theory anyway, are you?

"i'm not saying 'it's a slippery slope' but this is a pretty obvious step towards the rhetorical bottom of the hill that is fascism. "

Again, that IS a slippery slope argument.


""Nazi Germany existed, therefore we must stop evolution of government now to avoid that slippery slope?"

It would certainly help if our government wasnt looting the third reich for ideas. "

Wow, thats straight out of the Diplomat1824 "lets use soundbites instead of rational arguments' Playbook.

Ok, you're right I'm an asshole who uses illogical arguments.
I'll be honest, I have this dread sense of the dark clouds of fascism gathering. I see thats where we're heading. Fascism doesnt mean jack-boots and death camps. Didn't someone once say that when fascism comes to america, it will be carrying a cross and wrapped in the flag?

"secret prisons are a very large step in a very bad direction. People always muse about nazi germany, or other fascist states, how does this happen? This is how it happens. "

you can point out all my debate flaws (good job) but that doesnt make my statement untrue. slippery slope, thin edge of the wedge, what the fuck ever, it's happening. The government, taking more and more power, suspending civil liberties, doing things in secret, while the people sit and watch and dont speak out about it.
I'm not saying this is dominos and it's inevitable at this point, I"m just saying thay if you study history, you can see how totalitarian and fascist regimes come about, you can see the warning signs.
Patriot Act, Military Commissions act, Defense Authorization Act, oop there go our civil liberties. want to protest it? well go into the free speech cage.

honestly, what hallmark of fascism does america NOT display? And dont take that the wrong way, we're obviously not living in franco's spain. his is a question of presence, not degree.


All in all dingleberry, even if you disagree with my conclusions and think I'm irrational, you can't deny ythe fact that your government has secret prisons that it kept from you.

"honestly, what hallmark of fascism does america NOT display? "

@Sicarius, I wouldn't quite take it that extreme... but we are in a mid point between fascism and democracy... having elements of both. Does this mean we are headed for hard fascism (of the Franco or Mussolini variety)? Not necessarily... and I don't even see it as likely. But we are clearly corporatist, imperialist, and in a number of ways, authoritarian. So... I'm not sure if the slope is slippery... but the very fact that we are where we are on the slope is disturbing. There are far too many in this society that are perfectly happy either letting the government do what it wills or are supportive of its fascist elements (and don't think it goes far enough)... indeed they see American corporatism and imperialism and directly translate that in to "American capitalism and self-determination and spreading of freedom" or some such nonsense. The fascism that is here is largely unrecognized - probably even by its proponents. They have different names for it and, importantly, different goals... there is, for example, no serious push for racial purity or control of religion - nor do I expect that to become a mainstream theme. We are an corporatist empire - and that in itself is enough to make me unhappy with the state of the country.

I agree with you Sicarius. Fascism is coming. Except now they're calling it a "New World Order". Very clever this. The words New and Order make it sound nice though don't they? There are also plans to create a civil military that answers to the president. Along with this is another plan that requires ALL US citizens to give a 2 month service to their country. Many will be assigned to this civil military. I believe this will be used to indoctrinate young people to the governments ideas of self policing, spying, and reporting your fellow citizens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s
And here are the details. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KPSjUIJwpg&feature=related

and here is an interesting conversation with Alan Greenspan. He says that the Federal Reserve is above the Law. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol3mEe8TH7w


I'd say yes. Fascism is definitely alive and doing well.

Very well put dexter.
I have one thing to add though.
"Fascism ought to be called corporatism, for it is the perfect merger of the corporate and the state." -Mussolini
Yeah I dont see a big racial purity movement coming (unless the tea party goes that direction, probabl unlikely, but certainl possible.) but thats not an important part of fascism. When I say fascism isnt all jack boots and heils this is what I mean. it doesnt have to look like nazi germany for it to be fascism. But the paralells are certainl disturbing. operation paperclip is to blame maybe? hahaha

Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122) (2), which was signed by the commander in chief on October 17th, 2006, in a private Oval Office ceremony, allows the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities, in order to "suppress public disorder."

"you can point out all my debate flaws"
I could care less about your debate flaws. My issue is with the beliefs you hold.

"The government, taking more and more power, suspending civil liberties, doing things in secret, while the people sit and watch and dont speak out about it. "

Again, people have been saying this for centuries.

"I'm not saying this is dominos"

Actually, I think you have said precisely that, several times, and that is where I have issue.

"you can't deny ythe fact that your government has secret prisons that it kept from you."

I never denied that. I also said I had no issue with my government keeping secrets from the people.

"y'all were pretty adamant back then that it wouldnt ever happen. now that it has you deny the importance of it? insanity! "

Certainly not me. I never denied it in the first place. Not sure who 'yall;' are.

"you're right I'm an asshole"

Finally, something we agree on.

"Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.512"

Which was repealed by HR 4986
"Sec. 1068. Repeal of provisions in section 1076 of Public Law 109-364 relating to use of Armed Forces in major public emergencies. "

Sicarius is dead wrong. Fascism isn't coming to America. It's already here.

Apparently no one read the link I posted. What would you say about a society where a completely innocent man can be arrested for the crime of "looting" his own house, and locked up in a gitmo-style prison for months on end, with his family thinking he'd died? You may choose not to call such a society 'Fascist', but can anyone with a straight face call it 'Free' or "Ruled by Law"?

I know most Americans still feel 'free'. So, too, did most Germans under the Nazis (see: "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-1945" by Milton Mayer. Available at Amazon for only $20.52). It's always possible to live a fairly normal life in a totalitarian society so long as one 'follows the rules' and 'walks between the lines'. Everyone likes to think of themselves as Free until they or someone they know is ensnared by The System. Then they wake up. I wonder if any of the people here calling Sicarius a luniatic can recall the name of Gary Webb and what happened to him, or have ever personally attended a political protest in recent years that involved a major police response as Sic and I have.

From my experience, people who think this country is still free are politically ignorant. They've never worked on a political campaign or participated in a major political protest. In my time, I've seen political dissidents arrested, beaten by the police, murdered, thrown into mental hospitals, driven into exile in other states, or hounded to the point that they commit suicide. Legal political groups are regularly infiltrated by government Secret Police. We are not free, and Fascism is indeed here today - it doesn't take silly costumes or salutes. All it takes is a populace passive enough to ignore the worst abuses, which we certainly have among us today.

As I've probably said before here, if Sam Adams, John Hancock, and Patrick Henry were alive today, they'd be loading their illegal military assault weapons, donning their illegal bulletproof vests, and putting a bullet in the head of the nearest Law Enforcement Officer (formerly known as a 'redcoat') they encoutered. Those of you who think everything is 'hunky-dory' in America need to wake up.

Fascism is in most cases National Socialism. One can quibble, but generally this is true. Whether of the Fascists in Italy or the Falangists in Spain or the true Nazis or any of their fellow traveler parties in Europe, all adopted both parts of the formula. Herderian Nationalism does not seem particularly applicable to a Universal Nation like America, and as for Socialism, I have my doubts about Americans accepting that.....certainly, on the Right the odds seem grim. As for Corporatism in the Mussolini sense, it was something akin to an industrial feudalism. Both Mussolini and Hitler waged a virtual war against the "public" corporation. They preferred sole or familial proprietorships (Krupp, Fiat, etc). In economic terms, Canada is far closer to Fascism than the USA, and no I'm not serious suggesting that Canada is a totalitarian state. Perhaps America is or will succumb to totalitarian dictatorship, but Fascism seems unlikely.

Someone on here a little bit back posted the quote that when Fascism came to America it would come carrying a cross and wrapped in the flag and stated he was unsure whether is was Upton Sinclair or Huey Long. It was the former. Long's quote was that when Fascism comes to America it will be under the banner of anti-Fascism.

I'm unsure of John Hancock but both Sam Adams and Patrick Henry denounced the Constitution as tyranny and the end of freedom in America.

Also it has been pointed out that the greatest violator of civil liberties in American History was Lincoln and that few have as strenuously defended civil liberties as did Jefferson Davis, our current President's most famous ancestor (excluding the possibility of Adam, Eve, or Seth). Would anyone like to pick sides in that fight on the basis of that criteria?

ok jones, deny it till they're at your door.

Will do sicaruis. And you scream it from the rooftops until you can hopefully get a doctor to help with your delusions and paranoia.

@ Tolstoy: "Apparently no one read the link I posted. What would you say about a society where a completely innocent man can be arrested for the crime of "looting" his own house, and locked up in a gitmo-style prison for months on end, with his family thinking he'd died? You may choose not to call such a society 'Fascist', but can anyone with a straight face call it 'Free' or "Ruled by Law"?"

I actually hadn't read the link when you first posted it. I have read it now. Assuming the information it contains is broadly accurate, I have to agree that this absolutely stinks. The way this man was treated is not acceptable in a civilised society. In fact I am sufficiently incensed having read it, that I'll post the link again to encourage others to read it:

http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2010/03/greyhound-station-gulag.html

DingleberryJones - since you're so convinced America is a paradise of freedom and democracy, I would be interested in your response to the above article? If this can happen to this guy, then it could happen to anyone. All reasonable, civilised people should take a stand against such oppression.

I had read the article too, and I agree it stinks. Its unfortunate that it occurred. However I don't believe this points to a vast conspiracy of the government because of some overzealous police officers and/or governmental officials in a time of vast upheaval.

Every time there is a case of police brutality, Sicarius provides us with a link. And I will agree that is a terrible thing that the case occurred (assuming I agree it was brutality - I don't always, because Sicaruius posts links of extremely dubious nature frequently). However, I don't believe that this proves that police are inherently evil and everyone should ignore and/or fight the police and ignore whichever laws they don't agree with as Saricuis frequently expounds.

Hopefully the perpetrators will be sufficiently punished. However, I don't believe the above case proves that fascism is coming as Sicarouius claims, or that its already here, as Tolstoy foolishly suggests. You want people to take you serious? Try lessening the hyperbole and scare tactics.

Picture yourself back in 11th grade. Imagine if you had an evil teacher back in 11th grade. Do you think that teacher could effectively ruin your life? I bet he could. I bet you through grades and false evidence, especially in the internet age, that a teacher could ruin your life if they wanted to. I assume this has probably happened before.

Should be outlaw teaching? Is there some vast teacher conspiracy? There are many professions (teachers, doctors, lawyers, government and police) that could make your life very difficult if they wanted, and possibly land you in jail. I'm just not sure how you get to 'The US is fascist' based on the above link.

"Hopefully the perpetrators will be sufficiently punished."

Are you serious? Do you think there's a real possibility of that happening? And what, exactly, is your definition of a 'vast' conspiracy? It took probably hundreds of people to design, build, and staff the Greyhound Gulag. The construction apparently happened in a matter of two or three days - that's not something that can be done without building plans ahead of time. The entire cost was almost certainly in the millions, and I can't imagine something that expensive and potentially controversial (if the MSM would bother to cover such things) being planned and greenlighted by some nameless low-level FEMA bureaucrat as you're suggesting.

"However, I don't believe that this proves that police are inherently evil"

Do you know how much more likely a police officer is to be charged with a serious crime, relative to the general public? I know the number - but I'd be interested to hear your guess. And unlike police officers, it's relatively easy to get away from or get rid of a bad teacher; there is no "blue wall of silence" in teaching as there is in law enforcement, and most school districts are so terrified of being sued that they will throw teachers under the bus at the first sign of legal trouble. I did have one of those 'evil' teachers in 10th grade - the worst that happened was that I had to take World History over again in summer school. A bad police officer, however, can murder me with complete impunity. Yours is a rather imperfect analogy at best.

@ DingleberryJones: "Every time there is a case of police brutality..."

Yes, but this is a bit more that "a case of police brutality". This isn't a couple of cops with bad attitudes pulling over a black motorist for doing 57mph in a 55 zone and then giving him a beating for good measure. This bus station prison camp would have required significant organisation and would have had dozens of staff, so it must have been authorised and overseen by officials at quite a senior level. This is not an isolated incident of police brutality, but a very serious case in which hundreds of people appear to have been denied their basic legal rights.

Tolstoy, I've learned not to play 'Gotcha' with people. You want to share a stat (and cite its source), feel free. I'm not going to guess. The teachers analogy, of course it is imperfect - that is the very nature of trying to make analogies. Your EVIL teacher could have done worse, planting kiddy porn on your laptop, etc. Use your imagination and don't assume you've seen the worst.

Do you find it odd that not one... umm... I want to use the word 'legitimate' but instead I'll use mainstream... not one mainstream news source has picked up this story? Not to say it isn't true, but its odd, no? Sounds like it would be the scoop of the year, yet no one is reporting on it, other than fiction writer Dave Eggers.

As for the vast conspiracy this shows, assuming every word is true:
"It took probably hundreds of people to design, build, and staff the Greyhound Gulag. "
I think you overestimate the amount of work this took, and underestimate the amount of time it would take. The 'hundreds' of people to build it wouldn't be part of a conspiracy - they would have been told 'we need to build a prison'.

As stated in the USA Today article that was quoted in the story, this prison was needed because the real jails were flooded. Sounds pretty damn plausible, no?

Yeah, this article was spun nicely.

Actually, 'article' makes it seem like a credible news source. Please change that to 'story'.

"not one mainstream news source has picked up this story? Not to say it isn't true, but its odd, no?"

I don't think it's particularly odd, mainstream news is pretty complicit in blacking out stories that its told to.

Really? I'm suprised we had watergate and Lyndie England and I could probably go on and on. I'm glad to know it's a conspiracy of the governmnt AND the media. Who else Sicaruius? School crossing guards? Veternarians?

I'm surprised Dave eggert hasn't disappeared or at least been blacklisted by Amazon