@Ursa: "Personally I think this definition of faith, as: 'an assumption made by lack of evidence/proof' to shortsighted. It follows the definition that proof of things is the best we can get, which is foolishness. But I understand, when God is out of the question we can only build upon our senses. But how do we determine our impulses are true? Are things true because they work? What if our brain is fooling us?"
This shows that you have misunderstood how the scientific process works:
1. make observations about something you want to understand
2. build a model based on the observations
3. use the model to predict the future
4. see what really happens in the future
5. compare predictions with what really happened and either discard the model or improve

if you can predict the outcome of something accurately enough you can claim to understand it (to some level).
e.g say I flipped a coin 10000 times. How many time roughly would you expect to me have got heads?

Oh and our brains do fool us, that's why we have to record all the data and do double blind studies.

oh and to just jumping down to the reason both sides are debating here...to the other side any "scientific" explanation for the creation of the world/universe seems extremely ridiculous(big bang...what caused it to explode and where did it all come from) and any religious explanation also seems extremely ridiculous(how did a "god" create everything and where did he come from if he created everything).

I'm jumping to the bottom of this post after just reading a handful of entries. I apologize if I am missing some important points or if my views have been shared by someone else already.

To the question of "Why do you NOT believe?", here is my answer.

When an innocent person is killed, I don't believe.
When a woman is raped, I don't believe.
When a child is molested, I don't believe.
When a person starves from hunger, I don't believe.
When a child dies from cancer, I don't believe.
When a person dies from starvation, I don't believe.
When a person dies because he/she cannot afford/get medicine, I don't believe.
When science can explain almost everything, I don't believe.
When religion can explain almost nothing, I don't believe.

In my mind, a kind and just and loving God would not allow any of the above statements to be true. Since those statements are true, then in my mind there is no God. I am going to be the best human being that I can be while I am on this Earth, but I hold out no hope for anything beyond that. When I am dead, that is it. When you are dead, that is it.

who says there is a just and loving god? Didnt look too just and loving to me until Christians made up their own brand of Judaism-lite

I agree that there is no kind and just and loving God. But why would a God create humans and be unkind and unjust and unloving to them? Since this doesn't make sense, it just reinforces to me that there is no God. There is just the Universe and we are but a small, temporary part of it.

@ Captain Dave: thanks for the compliment of asking the question, and no, I am not a native speaker of English. So if I use some words at wrong places or if I am constructing weird sentences, please tell me.
Furthermore, and Xapi explains it partly, the universe is simply too orderly and mathematical precise to not raise questions about where it comes from. I'm not a 'rocket scientist' though, so tell me about infinite chaos and such.

@skeptic_ka: I feel you skip the point too easily. Ofcourse I know the scientific method and the thoroughness of it - but that's not what I'm talking about. The point 'it works so it is true' still goes. And how do you know? For that you have to trust on your senses. Why would you do that? What basis is there to build on?

Skipping the rest of the remarks here, too much is being discussed already.

@yellowpajamasson, most of those can be explained by free will. Besides, I wouldn't really want to live in a "perfect" world, in which nothing bad ever happens. There would be no point to life, no motivation to do better or help people, and nothing to accomplish. I would much prefer to be free than to have nothing bad ever happen.

For the last two points, science and religion explain different things. Science cannot explain why things happen, it can only predict what will happen under certain circumstances, based on previous observations.

@Darwyn
"And none of the following makes sense...
"What if...
The god says different things to different people,"
So he wants to make himself known, but has entirely different messages to different people? God is schizo?"
So you say the exact same things everyone you've ever talked to? By your logic, you must hallucinate and hear voices if not.

""The people interpret what the god says differently,"
God is omniscient, but cannot explain himself clear enough to avoid misinterpretation?"
You can never explain yourself so clearly that misinterpretation is impossible, especially if you have to speak in different languages that may not have words for what you're talking about.

""The god only speaks to certain people, or none at all,"
Fine...but why tell his own son one thing and Mohammad and Buddha something completely different"
My point was that its possible that he only spoke to Mohammad, or only Jesus, or only Buddha.

""People make stuff up and claim that God said it?"
My point exactly. Cuz I think the other questions fall into the "God works in mysterious ways" excuse."
My point was that, if a god spoke only to one person, other people could make things up, causing different theologies.

""there are many *different* gods, who do not necessarily agree with each other and who do not necessarily recognize each other as gods?"
Well that falls into exactly the trap my proof points out. IF there is a god or gods, by definition they know about each other."
Gods don't have to be omniscient.

sceptic_ka: I won't tell you to fuck off if you want call me ingorant. Oh wait, you just did. So fuck off. you haven't lived my life and seen the things I've seen so your "ass"umption that I'm ignorant enough to posit that anything I can't explain must be God is fucking bullshit.

Explain why a sperm and an ovum come together and form life. I don't want a how, I want a why. I can explain how biochemical reactions occur, but it doesn't explain why they do. I can explain that matter is attracted to more matter in what we call gravity, but I can't explain why. I can explain how photsynthesis works, but not why. God is the why.

Now, I don't have to prove my beliefs to anyone. I'm not asking anyone to follow my beliefs. My beliefs are mine and mine alone. So I won't belittle your closeminded unwillingness to believe in something greater than the hows and your refusal to look beyond what you can perceive if you won't belittle my willingness to accept the things I can't see or feel or prove but believe any how.

typo: ignorant, not ingorant

"So you say the exact same things everyone you've ever talked to?"
No, what I meant was (to use your example), I don't go around telling some people that I'm a graphic designer and others I'm a real estate agent.

"You can never explain yourself so clearly that misinterpretation is impossible"
We may have different definitions of omniscience then. Cuz part of being god is being all knowing and all powerful. There is nothing "impossible" to god.

"Gods don't have to be omniscient."
Then that isn't god. Gods by definition are omniscient. Aren't they?

Nope. The Christian God is considered to be all powerfull and omniscient.

Any polytheist religion obviously doesn't consider this to be truth, since it is clear that there can't be TWO all powerful entities (because one could force the other, yet it couldn't).

Not all monotheist religions necesarilly consider God to be omnipotent.

This is why I prefer the word Creator, there's a lot of baggage to the word God, so that people don't argue about the possibility of a god existing, but about the possibility of God being able to do all the things it is supposedly able to do.

And I agree with yellowpajamasson..."In my mind, a kind and just and loving God would not allow any of the above statements to be true."

Another thing...the concept of Heaven...In Catholicism anyway, one can only get their by submitting to god...accepting him.

So I can be the nicest, most giving person in the world, doing completely selfless acts...but I cannot go to heaven because I don't accept god?

And yet, the murderer/rapist who lives the devil's life need only submit to god on his death bed and he's in.

Makes NO sense whatsoever. Unless you frame this logic as a tool for enslavement. THEN it makes sense.

Well, all poweful is omnipotent, not omniscient. And God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, but he grants us free will which is why WE can misinterpret him. Yes, he could forcibly make us understand his work exactly, but that would remove our free will and make us all drones.

Point in fact, there was a time when all mankind (well all mankind known to man at the time) agreed on God and built a tower attempting to reach him. He struck down the tower, and created different tongues so that man would never try that again. At least that is the tale from Genesis/The Book of Jubilees.

But Xapi, the logical trap is that because there is no consensus among humans as to how many gods there are, there CANNOT be a god that makes himself known to the minds of men.

Once you acknowledge another god (or creator), it logically ceases to exist. If my god is not your god, then there are no gods. Yet since the advent of religion, we fight and kill over this very concept everyday. Therefore, there are no gods or creators that make themselves known to the minds of men.

The concepts of freewill and god are mutually exclusive. YOu cannot have both.

Since god is all knowing, he already knows every choice you make.

I'll dip in, what the heck.

Almost all of these debates can be silenced with a correct knowledge of Genesis 3, that is, that fall of man.

Yes, free will and God can definitely exist, and they do. We are created with a choice. How loving would it be if we were but God's robots? Murder/rape/hunger and all other terrors are a results of US, not God. It is our sin, our frailty and destruction of everyone and everything that leads to this stuff. Let's not say, "My life and this world is messed up, therefore God must not exist." This is a ridiculous jump. It is our fault. We are the sinners. We have been given a choice and we chose to sin.

God being seen and understood as different by people all over the world can also be explained by sin. Could it be that some are wrong? Some have rejected the truth? Some have made up gods to suit their own desires? for power? Some are just ignorant and weak in their thinking and need something?

Darwyn sure God knows, that doesn't mean we don't choose.

To answer the original question, a big influence for me was a study and understanding of the historical person of Jesus and the evidence for the resurrection. I'll post about it if you like, though I've done so a couple times already in other posts.

@Draugnar: I'm not calling you ignorant, I'm just pointing out a fallacy in your argument. That type of fallacy happens to be called an "argument from ignorance" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance). Please reread me post and tell me where I call you ignorant?

After some name calling you go on to repeat the same fallacious argument. "I can explain how photosynthesis works, but not why. God is the why." Again you (or say even everyone) doesn't know something, you (or we) have a gap in your (our) knowledge so you fill it with god. At not just any god, but your particular notion of god.

Again I'm not belittling you I'm just pointing out fallacies in your argument(s). Oh and if you open up your mind too much your brain will fall out. :-)

To this Darwyn:

"So I can be the nicest, most giving person in the world, doing completely selfless acts...but I cannot go to heaven because I don't accept god?"

I say this is rubbish. Biblically, according to the standard of perfection, no such person exists. Show me this man. "Noone is good, not even one." James says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at ONE point is guilty of breaking all of it.... He has become a lawbreaker."

How is a willingness to let you make the mistake anyhow mutually exclusive? Omniscience means he knwos all, but he chooses not to act and change that to meet his desires. Omnipotence means he COULD, if he so chose, change your actions to get the result he wants, but he has freewill and so grants us those choices, even though he knows what they will be.

I know if my dog choses to get into something that he'll get sick. I also know when he is thinking about it and I occassionally choose to let him get sick as it teaches him a lesson for next time.

With omniscient, omnipresence, and omnipotence comes patience; a patience we don't have. So, God allows us to do those things that he knows aren't good for us and patiently waits, knowling that one day we will learn (or we won't). He knows the outcome more surely than I know the outcome of Sebastian eating the rabbits Timothy Hay... He just chooses to NOT act on that knowledge, so how do the two contradict each other? Are you saying that knowing the result in advance means he is controlling said result? Nothing of the sort has been shown. He is omnipotent, but that does not obligate him to use that power. He is omniscient, but that does not obligate him to act on the knowledge. And, his own omnipotence is what makes it possible for him to give us free will. If you will, his omnipotence negates any possible paradox you may perceive as being all powerful means he is immune to paradox. If he can't overcome paradox, then he isn't all powerful and the paradox doesn't exist after all.

Or...if there's a paradox then he isn't omnipotent. If he isn't omnipotent the claims are false and he is false. You can flip that paradox argument over.

bartdogg - I only meant to point out the contrast of two people and the ridiculousness of the notion that merely accepting god is a ticket to heaven. If, in the end, all that is required is acceptance, his rules (commandments) on how to live life are a bit impotent.

Draugner - What I'm saying is, if god is omniscient, he already knows every single action you will take through your whole life, then your life is predetermined. No matter what free will or choice you think you have and regardless of divine intervention, by definition, your life has already been chosen.

You logically cannot have free will if there is an omniscient god.

"Darwyn sure God knows, that doesn't mean we don't choose."

And he knows what you choose. Your life is predetermined if he knows this. Nothing can change it. Every "change" you make is actually the predetermined path god already sees.

Darwyn - you life may have been perceived and seen, but it has not been decided for you. Seeing all does not mean you have guided what was seen. God sees all possible futures. He knows what paths you will choose, but he doesn't choose them for you. That is the free will. I know that if an astronaut goes crazy and decides to take a walk without a spacesuit, he is going to die. But when it happens, it doesn't mean that I pushed him out the airlock.

A bit extreme, I know, but I didn't want to use something with a possibility of survival like jumping off the top of a 20 story building.

God's desire is that all would come to him. He is disappointed because he knows they won't. If we didn't have free will, we would come to him. You keep insisting that foreknowldge precludes freedom of choice, but you nor I understand how that foreknowledge works. Maybe it is the ability to see all possible outcomes but selectively choosing to ignore the information that would tell him exactly which one happens. Until we experience omniscience ourselves, we can't possibly truly understand it.

Again, a path he sees doesn't meen he controls it. He chooses to not control it even when it disappoints him.

But if we truly don't understand omniscience, then we cannot make any presumptions that foreknowledge doesn't preclude freedom of choice either.

So god either knows your entire life and will know every single decision you will make thusly categorizing your life as predetermined, or he doesn't. Knowing this is inherent to the definition of omniscience.

Actually, Draugnar, you can survive for about a minute in space...

But a path he sees nonetheless. I'm not talking about him controlling it...just that he knows what you will do at every instance.

Knowing everything thing you will do at any given time is part of being omniscient. If god is omniscient, your life is predetermined (not by him, by you)...but if god is not omniscient, then he isn't god.

I think you guys may find this interesting...and it's relevant to the topic

http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php

I will not be held responsible if your brain explodes though. :)