Mapu,

Your questions imply that a skilled player would begin playing for a draw that early. That might be what a beginner would do, but not a skilled player. I hope you would agree that playing for a stalemate at that point would be premature.

A06: France only had 12 SC's, there was plenty of time left for Turkey to back off. Not to mention that France had just supported me into Venice. He had only 1 fleet in my area, and I expected to be able to negotiate to keep it that way.

A07: France only had 13 SC's, there was still plenty of time left. I thought support holding Venice was a non-move, and France was going to try to take Tyrolia. So, attacking Trieste defended Venice, and gave a potential for advancement. France still only had 1 fleet.

"Gen. Lee, That is not a viewpoint, those are the rules for the masters tournament. In the Masters tournament, a draw=survive=defeat. Only a solo is given a victory point.
Under normal conditions I would agree that a draw is better than survive or defeat."

Do you see how stupid this statement is. We all know that only a solo is scored for the Masters tournament. But just because you can't score doesn't mean you don't play defense to prevent someone else from scoring. If you are strictly worried about how the tournament is scored/played a DEFEAT in a draw is preferred to a Survive in a solo every single time.

Apparently Devonian is 'very big on vDip' so I don't think he is listening to us plebs over here.

Well done, Julien. A damned fine effort! Very elegantly done.

Special salute to Nigs, by the way. It's not many Austrias that take on all four of its neighbours at some stage in the game and still manage to be a major player at the end. Top marks for sheer fighting spirit! Less so for the result.

Hello. I just threw a game this afternoon. I realize that there are two levels of players here - those who occasionally throw games, and at a lower level, those who are baffled that games are sometimes thrown.

It should be understood that if you're reading this and you're part of the group of players that are surprised when games are thrown, you're operating at a lower level of play and you're very limited understanding of diplomacy fails to encompass strategies and scenarios where one or more parties have the abilities to exercise nuclear options.

Well said Al, I'm looking forward to operating ay a higher level of play and throwing a whole load of games - using a range of strategies, scenarios and nuclear options.
I just need 6 players who are as keen if not more keen to throw a much than me. I'll set up a whole series of games, the better you throw, the more you can play in, eventually you will enter the vDip 'Hall of Fame' for your efforts.
Anyway enough talk let's get these games on:

Fuckwits Challenge
1. Devonian
2. Al Swearengen
3. Total Loser
4. CD Merchant
5. Another Dickhead
6. Space Cadet
7. Vacancy
Are you small-minded enough to step up to the 'Fuckwits Challenge'.
Skills required: Talk bullshit for 10 years then throw to country with largest number of SCs, then talk more bullshit, tell all your fellow players how much nicer it is on vDip, don't understand what all the fuss is about.

Nigee, my Dear Fellow, I just had a glance at your gaming record. Out of your last ten games, 0% of them were not gunboat games. What I mean to say is that you don't appear to have a greater than casual interest in what I would call Diplomacy. In the game that I was attempting to discuss with you, players are able to broker complex agreements with other players, hoodwink and intimidate rivals into pursuing suboptimal courses of action, and then enforce directives in addition to the vulgar chessgame of which you usually enjoy.
If you can manage to control your temper, I'd like you to consider actually sampling the game that some of us enjoy.

Check out the OP, I've just played a full press masters game where a jerk called Devonian (very big on vDip apparently) bullshitted for a few years and then threw the game to France, this was in the Masters where you only score points for solos.
Why not read his bullshit EOG in a pathetic attempt to justify his actions,
You negate the point you wish to make with your haughty tone on a thread about a poor quality full press 'Masters' Tournament game.
If positive attitude was dynamite you wouldn't have enough to blow your nose. You can dress up chucking games as much as you want but the word 'Loser' is still relevant, even more so if you dress up your defeat with ridiculous moral/strategic justifications. Try hard to win next time, I think you might like it.

Oh, Nigs, one of the joys of the game is working out the personal motivations and goals of the other players. You can't just assume everyone is going to work with the same principles as you or I. Everyone has their own view of how the game should be played.

I understand the frustration that comes from the realisation that you were allied to, and then stabbed, a player that if handled differently would have been you best bet for winning the game, but such is life. France, by luck or judgement (and let's give him the benefit and assume it was mostly judgement) handled Italy very well and played an elegantly simple game in the north, and this won him the game.

Learn from this and do better next time.

Nigee - let's not be too insulting now. Devonian was nice enough to accept my invitation to come over here and play. Let's not scare him back to VDip, as he is quite a good player.

Goldie - I don't mind because I'm not really into these Tourney things but am happy to make up the numbers and I still take the competition seriously and I have respect for my fellow players; I thought that there may be players here in the Tourney that are interested in what happened here and maybe a tad disappointed if they thought there were other players deliberately throwing games for whatever reason.
It's a strange thing what he done, which should not detract from the person who got the solo but does slightly, even more so for the phoney EOG he gave in justification of his actions.
In general I like people who are different and I celebrate diversity in all of its forms so apologies if it offends your sensibilities..... the truth will out and everyone has had a chance to review the situation and make their own minds up.

Goldfinger, I was planning on going back to Vdip anyway. I like the variants. I appreciate being invited and hope to find the remaining worthwhile. Besides, even though Austria was unpleasant and continues to be so after the game. His insults say more about him than they do about me.

Nigel,

I don't agree that it detracts from the solo. If anything it adds to the solo. There is every appearance that you've allowed yourself to be played like a hand of cards.

" Besides, even though Austria was unpleasant and continues to be so after the game. His insults say more about him than they do about me"
Devonian I'm being honest, if you find that unpleasant maybe that is a reflection on your game play.
Can you explain two things because honesty is a very noble quality:
1) Why did you allow France to just take your SCs giving him a solo?
2) Why did you lie in your EOG about:-
a) Turkey wanting to wipe you out
b) You trying to make peace with Turkey from 1902
Are you a little bit 'Walter Mitty', making up your own reality as you go along to suit your circumstance and actions
If you insist on lying it just makes me want to tell the truth, you attract your own negative comments like shit attracts flies.
Try the truth some time, who knows, you might like it.
My only real confusion and question is this......... Why did you do it?
I don't really care about the game or the tourney but I am truly fascinated by the logic that was employed here...... why?

Al I find you kind of interesting ...... inane and insipid, keep it up Tiger, librarians everywhere must aspire to be someone like you :-)

NB, this is not the first time you've overestimated your enemies willingness to help you stop a solo. Supporting the solo is not necessarily spite, it can be *vengeance* - making your enemies lose even though you lose as well. Players would have a different attitude toward stabbing and provoking if vengeance were expected. Considering that you've repeatedly complained about this NB, maybe you should start expecting players to soldier on to make you lose even at their own expense!

Just looking at the movements and the global chat, I obviously can't have the full overview of the game. But it seems to me that A/T/I were all too much concerned with their own powerbase to fight off their joint problem in France. Austria attacking Munich, Italy attacking Tri, Turkey building F Smy - all these moves seem mighty petty. I fully agree that A/T should have backed off before expecting Italy could fight off France. Not sure I would have as Italy given this board.

Devonian: I have to say that I find your above statement that France was not in a winning position in A06 implausible. Surely you can see that his five fleets give him the North in no time at all. That was the moment the strategic move was to move towards stalemate. Now, I cant fault you for not doing that to prove a point to A/T. I might have done that myself. But in my view it's not the pure strategic choice you make it out to be.

When you say: "However, if I did turn on you (France), there would have been no guarantee that there would not be a solo anyway". My response would be, there's never a guarantee, but you should still take the shot.

@Julien you said "So in this view, everyone should aim for stopping leaders from getting the solo."

What if the only way to get yourself included in the draw is to make things *even more* difficult for the anti-solo coalition? Looking at the game that's the subject of this thread, I don't reckon A/T would have let Italy survive. Italy might as well attack A/T and force them to move against France someplace else. If it doesn't work, at least the game ends more quickly.

I don't see how a draw was in the cards for Italy, if he had cooperated with Austria and Turkey. NB isn't seeing it from Italy's perspective; his expectation is everyone gets on board to stop a solo no matter what.

I take back everything I said about this. If you are the weaker power, keep your ability to stalemate as best you can. But if someone has been pushing for your elimination or refuses to make you comfortable its just as important to keep your ability to throw the game. It is a difficult balance to maintain but I will throw the game over elimination 100% of the time if I am able to.

@Gen - the guy wasn't being eliminated, we were trying to get near enough to stop him throwing the game by actually preventing France from taking his SC's he was working with France all of the game ....... he just talks shit to justify his nonsensical actions. When I suggested lets do something together he said 'it's too late now' - I think his real surname is Jerkoff

I'm just preparing ya'll in case there is a game I'm about to throw. ;) I can see his position a lot clearer now. I don't care if it's masters (solo only) or not, I will throw the game before I'm eliminated if I have the ability to every. single. time.

Watch yourself Gen. Lee. That comes dangerously close to communicating outside of the game. Since this tournament is randomized anon players, they won't know what game you're referring to, so I'll let this slide.

When in doubt, support the strongest. If you're on the brink that's your only leverage against the other players.

@tendmote - I won't argue with idiots, you carry on mate, tell us a bit about yourself so that we may know you

Awwww is the widdle general wee gonna take his ball and go home?

There is something truly despicable about the mindset that says "if I don't get my way with player A, I'll throw the solo to B, and I'll use the threat of that as a diplomatic tool". I just can't have someone throw that kind of childish threat at me and respect their style of play. If I decide early on to attack one country while allying with another (which is essentially the starting point of every game) and the country I decide to attack, rather than trying to turn my ally against me or recruit others to his cause, plays the "I'll take my ball and go home" card, thinking that I'd rather do what he says than get a survive at the expense of someone else's solo, then my new goal becomes defeating the childish bastard. A win, draw, survive or defeat only lasts the duration of the game, but integrity and honor exist outside of the game.

If you can't turn people through diplomatic means, than it just wasn't your game. Fight to the death and try to screw your enemies if you can, but to just give up and throw your shit to someone else for a solo because you don't get your way is a lame ass pussy move.

+1 well said, you've come back swinging punches, good recovery

"Fight to the death and try to screw your enemies if you can"

You're pretty dense Phil.

Silencing-jail will do that, as you well know Nigee. You come out harder, changed... Those who haven't been there will never understand.

But when you were innocent and there was a miscarriage of justice it leaves you with a niggling disrespect for the jailor, you see them as weaker, you see their fallibility and it's disappointing, you always believed they were on the side of the righteous, the good guys. Now you know they are just human (not humane) and prone to the same errors and mid-judgements that we are, somehow before you believed they were better, in some way superior.
You will inevitably come to the conclusion that they have been corrupted by power and must be crushed, when you are ready come join the revolution, die fighting like a hero or submit timidly like a mouse. Will you join us Comrade....