...Well, at least you made sure to share "shiksa" with us maple, lol...

See, we're not that useless, Jews--we give you whole new Yiddish words to use disparagingly. :p

Portnoy's Complaint was an education.

Well, you're all totally useless then.

Have fun!

"I'd like to see these threads be an actual discussion of ideas instead of a chess-match."

A noble cause. I'll follow your lead.

"Portnoy's Complaint was an education."

"Good Christ, a Jewish man with parents alive is a fifteen-year-old boy, and will remain a fifteen-year-old boy till they die!"

"
They HAD an endgame... -_-

And if the best you can do is repeatedly Godwin yourself with a Nazi reference...
"

I never referred to the Nazis anywhere in that reference? That's not a Godwin in any shape or form Obi. I was comparing one uprising under oppression against another. But you go for the easy dodge apparently

which brings me to....

"If Palwatch wasn't a fair resource, why is ElectronicIntifada?"

Palwatch speculates and literally makes stuff up. ElectronicIntifada is citing specific words and legislation by a real PM. If you think there's anything made up in the post you're free to cite it

"And "exterminate nets of resistance" =/= "exterminate the Jews to the last one."

There's a difference between ending Hamas' resistance and ending AN ENTIRE ETHNO-RELIGIOUS GROUP. -_-"

-"Feiglin, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, calls for the “conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.”

-“This is our country – our country exclusively,” he writes, “including Gaza.”"

-"“Tent encampments,” where the Palestinian civilian population would be “concentrated,” are simply concentration camps.

-“The supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected,” he adds."

This sounds pretty clear cut to me Obi. He even uses the word you prescribed, exterminate. Is there literally no situation, even when met with bald-faced evidence, that you can admit you are wrong?

It's not like this is the first time this has happened

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/expel-palestinians-populate-gaza-jews-says-knesset-deputy-speaker

If that's not enough, here's passages from the actual Likud charter, Since you're so keen on citing Hamas' I think this would be good to include

a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”

b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.
The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”

c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

This sounds pretty uncompromising to me. What legitimacy do the Palestinian people have for a state in the face of the MP's comments and Likud's Charter Obi?

"If the Gazans were led by another group (hell, if they were led by Tories, lol...I kid, I kid) I would be far more critical of Israel's use of force."

Except this isn't true Obi, you repeatedly have only made excuses for Israeli crackdown on West Bank protesters, and while you say you're against encroaching settlements there, it apparently doesn't factor in when you consider Israel's motivations overall. You as well are completely against the proposed unity government, which again, included no members of Hamas in the governing body.

" It doesn't help that both sides entrench the other...the harder the stance Putin or Chairman takes on Israel, the more I feel the need to defend them from what I feel are increasingly-unfair attacks and a one-sided account that defames one side and washes clean the sins of Hamas..."

It's very unfortunate that when met with evidence you decide to further entrench your viewpoint instead of considering another side. You've already admitted to many egregious faults and motivations on the part of Israel, and seem to have real qualms about Israel's bombing of Palestinians. I don't understand what makes you ignore everything and get tunnel vision on Hamas instead of seeing what the Israeli campaign is actually about (hint: it's not about Hamas).

"If my "opponents" in this debate weren't so trenchantly anti-Israel and supported Hamas' actions, ideology and opposition, regardless of the consequences or implications, I might be more inclined to move further towards the center, though I'd probably still stay on the Israeli side of that line."

This is a bald-faced lie, the second in as many pages. I have repeatedly stated I support the Palestinian people, and their resistance to oppression, no matter the form it takes. Right now, that is Hamas. They tried to do something different, but Israel stopped it. If Hamas were to be gone tomorrow I would not shed a single tear for them because a future without them would only be better. But it's clear that you support Israel no matter what, and even if Hamas were gone tomorrow, I seriously doubt you'd change your position even then, but instead just find a new excuse.

obi, you made a very clear and specific demand of me in your last post, and I was able to fulfill your demand completely. Now I make the same to you.

Hypothetically, ignore Hamas for now. Say all rocket fire and everything stops from Israel tomorrow. What would it take you to condemn Israeli aggression in Gaza. You already do so in West Bank. What makes Gaza such a niche case for you. Do you really settle on damning millions of Palestinians for the acts of a very few (Hamas)?

"Say all rocket fire and everything stops from Israel tomorrow."

*Gaza, of course

Just to harp on a point for a moment, this is a passage in the Likud Charter

"
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”"

For perspective, west of the Jordan river is ALL of Israeli. This one sentence effectively means the Palestinians will never, ever have a state within the borders of Israel, which were once their home. Likud and Israel by extension will never allow Israel to lose territory to Palestine, and effectively sees everything, Gaza and the West Bank, as part of Israel proper.

M'kay, 'fore we get to the rest of this...

"Palwatch speculates and literally makes stuff up. ElectronicIntifada is citing specific words and legislation by a real PM. If you think there's anything made up in the post you're free to cite it"

1. Dude, my Palwatch thing cited "specific words" and the Hamas charter...so...yeah, no.

2. Really? ElectronicIntifada counts as an unbiased, fair source to use? And if we're using biased sources but require data/video/quotes, again, my Palwatch link provided all three...

"Except this isn't true Obi, you repeatedly have only made excuses for Israeli crackdown on West Bank protesters"

AGAIN BULLSHIT, I have said REPEATEDLY NOW that I OPPOSE their actions in the West Bank. I have said that over and over and over now.

I appeal to the others reading this--have I not said that I oppose Israel's actions in the West Bank NUMEROUS TIMES NOW?

Really, if you can't get your stuff straight, Chairman, then this is already more of a waste of time than this already is.

"It's very unfortunate that when met with evidence you decide to further entrench your viewpoint instead of considering another side. You've already admitted to many egregious faults and motivations on the part of Israel"

1. SEE? You seem aware that I've admitted to those faults, so WHY do you say above that I haven't or don't? Keep your story straight, at the very least!

2. I've already expressed my utter loathing for this line of reasoning, so I'm going to be brief and terse about this, because at this point, I'm fucking sick of this shit--

I have considered your points, Chairman.
Repeatedly.
Believe it or not, you and Putin and the others here are NOT the first folks I've had this conversation with.
I have considered--I DISAGREE.

Disagreeing with someone is NOT the same as not considering a viewpoint in the first place.

It is the HEIGHT of smug self-assurance to think that after literally thousands of posts over at least half a dozen threads on this topic now, I have not considered your view. You have had literally tens of thousands of words to air your view.

I still disagree.

And as you're still as entrenched in your position as I am in mine, I might ask why that's OK, but my refusal to budge is met with self-satisfied smugness...but of course, THAT'S OK, because that's YOUR viewpoint...and no amount of evidence or reasoning I can give will budge that, or even convince you that it counts as evidence or reasoning, as even video from Hamas itself doesn't cause you to budge.

But that's OK? And my reading, and reading, and READING, ad naseum, the justification for a group that promises genocide, robs women of the kind of rights Western nations champion--yeah, we haven't even DISCUSSED the sort of shitty views Hamas takes towards THAT group, but hey, as long as they oppose Israel, any and all sins are washed clean and anyone who disagrees CLEARLY hasn't been paying attention, right?

Why should I keep talking to such a person, when that's your goddamned attitude?

I already have Putin for that...and one Putin's one too many, frankly (which goes for Big Bad Vlad and our own diminished model here.)

So have we finally got to the point where all politicians supporting Netanyahu are scumbags and Netanyahu should be tried for war crimes?
Some of you people take a long time to come to your senses and I just don't understand why. These Israelis are scumbags and it looks like the hatred is being driven in part by some warped extremist religious views that the normal public are buying in to, please don't feel the urge to shoot the messenger I am just saying what I see.
I watched the new Planet of the Apes film yesterday and in it Caesar has a great line and the irony was not lost on me.
To paraphrase he said it is my fault the war started because I thought that apes were better than humans, and I didn't realize we are just the same. For apes see Democrats, Obama was to be the great liberator giving a new way forward for American in the world, a beacon of hope and peace where truth and justice and democracy would prevail over tyranny and torture and corruption, his legacy will be Obamacare .... what an absolute c***.
So maybe all this is my fault because I believed that somehow a black president would have more understanding of the suffering of the oppressed peoples in the USA and around the world and he would somehow form a bridge between leaders where other presidents had failed, but he has been less than useless.
Krellin was right about Obama, maybe he should be leading us now, he is the new Caesar.
Where is Krellin when he need him for he speaks the truth, if he can bring Aslan and baby Jesus with him, possibly Buddha (Mother Theresa to bake cakes and do the teas, Princess Di just in case people feel a bit horny and need a quick happy ending) I think we have a great chance to turn this world around.

KRELLIN4GOD2015 - you heard it here first

...We're consulting Planet of the Apes for our rants now, are we, Nigee? O.o

Oh, oh, I wanna play!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76zvneuosaI

"1. Dude, my Palwatch thing cited "specific words" and the Hamas charter...so...yeah, no.

2. Really? ElectronicIntifada counts as an unbiased, fair source to use? And if we're using biased sources but require data/video/quotes, again, my Palwatch link provided all three.."

Palwatch is notoriously shitty and it's surprising you don't know this. And you don't need a palwatch link to cite the Hamas charter dude.

"And as you're still as entrenched in your position as I am in mine, I might ask why that's OK, but my refusal to budge is met with self-satisfied smugness...but of course, THAT'S OK, because that's YOUR viewpoint...and no amount of evidence or reasoning I can give will budge that, or even convince you that it counts as evidence or reasoning, as even video from Hamas itself doesn't cause you to budge."

You're again missing the forest for a tree. You're so tunnel visioned on Hamas you're failing to see the larger picture. I've shown you time and time again how Israel enacts aggressive, immoral, racist, and outright genocidal policies when it comes to Hamas, beyond anything that Hamas could ever dream of enacting, and you still go to bat for them.

That's the main issue here. While Hamas has a lot of bark, I see that for what is is; big talk with nothing to back it up. You ignore how Hamas isn't an aberration in history, but the sign of a people struggling under oppression. What's mind numbing is how you hold contradictory positions. West Bank bad, Gaza good. Again, you damn millions for the acts of a few, while making excuses for Israel when they purposefully sabotage the peace process.

Would you make the same posts defending South African apartheid? Turkish and Iraqi extermination of the Kurds? Qaddafi's crackdown on Arab Spring protesters? All these things have the same vein running through them; a harsh system of power pushing down on minorities without power. This is the exact situation in Israel and it is no less a crime than any of these previous examples.

The fact is you read but you do not see

NuLabour agrees with Krellin. Color me unsurprised.

" I've shown you time and time again how Israel enacts aggressive, immoral, racist, and outright genocidal policies when it comes to Hamas,"

I should say, Hamas and the Palestinian people

I forgot to note that was some impressive footwork on Obi's part to dance around actually addressing any of the links or evidence I posted as well.

"Palwatch is notoriously shitty and it's surprising you don't know this. And you don't need a palwatch link to cite the Hamas charter dude."

Oh, and ElectronicIntifada is a bastion of journalistic integrity?

Again, double standard, that's my point.

Either call it both ways or give way to the bias cutting both ways.

And yeah, I've cited it previously, from other websites...but it happened to be there while I was getting the video from the Al-Aqsa feed, so I copy-pasted.

"The fact is you read but you do not see"

Oh, fuck off with that--

Again, how pretentious and smugly self-satisfied can you be?

Unless you're Sherlock Holmes saying "You see, but you do not observe," fuck off with that kind of pretentious crap...and I know Sherlock Holmes...I love Sherlock Holmes...I've read and watched Sherlock Holmes--

And you sir, are not Sherlock Holmes, no Dr. Watson, no Inspector Lestrade...hell, you're not even Inspector Clouseau.

Chairman why you still pandering to the racist ..... his hate speeches would have him banned from many forums but not Webdip, no he is safe here, that says so much....

"Oh, and ElectronicIntifada is a bastion of journalistic integrity?"

Did I say that? Anywhere?

"Either call it both ways or give way to the bias cutting both ways."

I asked you to point out any issues with the site or article. You haven't.

"Oh, fuck off with that--

Again, how pretentious and smugly self-satisfied can you be?

Unless you're Sherlock Holmes saying "You see, but you do not observe," fuck off with that kind of pretentious crap...and I know Sherlock Holmes...I love Sherlock Holmes...I've read and watched Sherlock Holmes--

And you sir, are not Sherlock Holmes, no Dr. Watson, no Inspector Lestrade...hell, you're not even Inspector Clouseau."

So are you going to address anything I actually said or just curse at me?

"I forgot to note that was some impressive footwork on Obi's part to dance around actually addressing any of the links or evidence I posted as well."

I've addressed your links repeatedly...or did you forget my thousands-word long responses at the start of these bouts?

Sorry if I don't respond to every single last one...eventually, your smugness just makes me want to have less and less to do with you...really, you and Putin should get together, you'd make great twinsies (someone named for a fictional Chinese leader, and someone named for the current leader of Russia...perfect! Why, you're practically twins already!)

http://sidmeiersalphacentauri.wikia.com/wiki/Human_Hive

"I've addressed your links repeatedly...or did you forget my thousands-word long responses at the start of these bouts?"

Not talking about the start, I'm talking about my post on this page. Thought that was pretty clear.

"http://sidmeiersalphacentauri.wikia.com/wiki/Human_Hive"

Congrats you can use google

Obi thinks typing words is the same as actually addressing anything anybody says. At this point he thinks typing words weeks ago is good enough that all he has to do is curse at people in all caps now.

"you and Putin should get together, you'd make great twinsies (someone named for a fictional Chinese leader, and someone named for the current leader of Russia...perfect! Why, you're practically twins already!"

No, we certainly don't agree on Iraq, Libya, and probably a myriad of other issues.

The thing we have in common is running into the brick wall that is Obiwan Obiwan.

"So are you going to address anything I actually said or just curse at me?"

At this point, I'll only address you or Putin if someone else wants me to or asks me to do so on a specific point--

After hundreds of posts, 1. You're not the time and 2. I'd much rather be getting paid for writing that much, so I'll return to my articles, thank you very much...

There's really no point after all these posts, this keeps getting more and more insipid, you refuse to give any admissions on your part (which makes me frankly not want to do so on my part, because you are NOT 100% correct, no one is, but you sure love to exalt yourself and your self-righteous position as such) and tendmote's right...this isn't debate anymore, this is one guy vs. three guys being increasingly nasty while everyone else wonders what the fuck's going on.

So, I'm done.

If the others ask I address one of your points specifically, I'll do so, otherwise...there's no further point, and it's not even a pleasure...and being an atheist, I'd rather not waste my life in *that* many bitter flame wars with pompous Putin and Co., thanks.

The Rest is Silence.

I'll take that as a no. Okay.

Translation: "Respond to you is difficult because you've caught me in a myriad of inconsistencies and lies. So I'll just shout at you, curse at you, and deflect from the points you raise, because I'm both lazy and intellectually dishonest."

The only validation that bigot has is the people take him serious by responding to him.
If you mute him or at least ignore him he won't have any audience for his racist rhetoric.
He has nothing positive to offer, he is a part of the Zionist movement that just keeps chucking out the same tired old phrases hoping that if you say something long enough some people will start to listen and comment, and by doing so give the views some legitimacy. We should not encourage extreme racist propaganda on the forum, whether it is banned or not.....

@ obiwanobiwan:

*Calls someone else smug and pretentions*

*Attempts to illustrate his point with clever-clever literary reference*

Yeah, ok.

"I'd much rather be getting paid for writing..."

Someone actually PAYS you to write stuff? Bloody hell, you saw them coming.

Writing bullshit is apparently recession-proof.