The real tragedy is that people like you actually exist. Kind of a scary thought, ain't it?

Steady on boiler. There's no need for personal insults.

You're the one who contributed nothing to the debate other than calling me an idiot, which is ironic because you seem incapable of reading basic sentences. He asked me if I'd visited and I'd said I had, and you come in here and tell me that I think visiting is the same as living somewhere. I visited China for six months and lived with a Chinese family who spoke no English, but whatever.

Ivo is so damn lazy he doesn't even know that I cited thoroughly bourgeois anti-communist sources to back up my so-called "Soviet propaganda". Anything that disagrees with his "it's ok if all the Jews were slaughtered" worldview must be "propaganda", so he doesn't have to bother to read.

See you visited, which is quite different from living. You knew that you eventually you were going to leave. While living means you have the realistic chance of being stuck there forever. You experienced a vacation not struggles of real life.

"Ivo is so damn lazy he doesn't even know that I cited thoroughly bourgeois anti-communist sources to back up my so-called "Soviet propaganda". Anything that disagrees with his "it's ok if all the Jews were slaughtered" worldview must be "propaganda", so he doesn't have to bother to read."

As opposed to your "Its ok if Jews were slaughtered by the Stalin" world view, come on Putin.

dig... dig... dig...

@IVO
Yes, without nukes we would probably not have a cold war... It would have been hot instead...
All other scenarios would have led to more deaths, on both sides. Saying it was the wrong decision without comparing the alternatives is simply too naive.

Maybe a hot war would have been less bad. Today we have 10'000 Atomic bombs on our planet. Enough to destroy life on our planet and turn it into a rock like mars or venus or the moon. And this because of the cold war.

@spyman:

Despite great egalitarianism in salaries of men, women were paid 70% of what men were [Heitlingerová, Trnková, 1998]. This was a consequence of official discriminatory policy against consumer industries and sector of services, where most women worked, in comparison to universally supported heavy industry. Today the gender wage differential is 26%, not much better but far from the tragic regression Putin pictures.

And despite complete state control over big companies, women were simply absent from the leading posts. The situation is not ideal now, women are mostly heads of HR if they get into top management, but there was no female CEO of a company comparable to Vodafone CR or Ringier CR, which are currently led by women.

@Putin:

52,4% of doctors in the Czech Republic are women, which is obviously more than 40% so no regression here.

Regarding women in politics, you seem to conveniently forget to point out that there was only 1 female minister during the period 1970-1989 (actually, there were 2, but the second one got the post immediately after the revolution). A woman served as a minister 18 times during the period 2002-2010 (which is also roughly the second half-time of the current regime, as was 1970-1989 the second halt-time of communist rule), plus Vlasta Parkanová was First Vice Prime Minister, a post which was never attained by a woman before 1989. It is true that we have no female minister right now, but the Chair of the Chamber of Deputies is a woman and 2 of her 3 vicechairs are women as well. But I guess that what matters to you is a number of female backbenchers picked by the party establishment (the 30% quote for women in parliament was modeled after SU, where it was 33%), not the number of female politicans that actually have some agenda to look after or were elected in regular elections (no, elections where the number of candidates equals the number of seats are not elections).

And regarding the Public Affairs calendar, yes, it was an act of freedom when their politicians decided to pose for it just as when female basketball players from Olomouc did it or when Sila Sahin posed for Playboy (and when the leaders of our biggest right-wing party CDP posed in swimsuits on a billboard). Heck, I would even allow this freedom of self-expression to Marie Kabrhelová if she decided to do that.

"no, elections where the number of candidates equals the number of seats are not elections"

Lol

"See you visited, which is quite different from living. "

No kidding, Sherlock. I never suggested otherwise. You continue to call me an idiot for answering a question. Yes, I didn't grow up in the eastern bloc. Apparently the only acceptable argument is one based on unaccountable personal anecdotal stories, in your view. Because anti-communists from the eastern bloc have so much credibility and never lie. Especially rich ones.

"As opposed to your "Its ok if Jews were slaughtered by the Stalin" world view, come on Putin."

Stalin didn't slaughter Jews, liar. Many of the people in the Politburo were Jews. How many Jews were in Hitler's party, let alone his cabinet? And really you're going on the Hitler = Stalin bandwagon. Pathetic. Are you really are going to agree with Ivo that it didn't matter if Hitler won or lost? Really?

"Someone is sure mad. Getting angry over the internet is goddamn hilarious. Sir, you are the extremist in here."

Boilerplate you are being insulting. Why not actually contribute to the debate instead of yelling abuse from the side. Putin's views may be unconventional but at least he presents a case. These discussions/debates are interesting. I like reading both sides. So thank you to Putin and anyone else who has contributed, regardless of where they stand on these questions.

droping a nuke on civilians is a crime against humanity

Enjoying the conversation even if I haven't been participating.
But I finally found something I can chime in about.

SC, Russian Jews were far better (at least in term's of antisemitism) in Stalin's russia than the tzar's.

Remember Fiddler?
"Is there a blessing for the tzar?"
"Of course, may god bless and keep the tzar... far away from us"

Stalin's mural was prominent in the kibbutzim - I'm sure it wouldn't have been so if he had wanted to slaughter all the Jews. To be fair though, I'm not sure what your point was. It seemed a bit paranoid. I don't think Putin was advocating anything antisemitic.

I must say that Putin is to some extent correct in the sense that saying Nazis and Communists were equally evil is just unfair. Even during the Stalinist era of the Soviet Union, there was some degree of opposition to the looming threat of Russian chauvinism. Take for example the project of Korenizatsiya. While the Germans were fueled entirely by genocidal hatred, the Soviet elites lived in this strange doublethink-like mixture of extremist hatred towards any opposition and the founding ideas of socialism. In the end, however, they were terribly corrupted by the realities of power, even though they might have consciously clinged to their original ideas.

Soviet Union's treatment of the Jews was ambiguous - on one side there were the Jewish communist prominents, the Yevreyskaya avtonomnaya oblast, the initial support to Israel coordinated between most eastern countries (Czechoslovakia in particular was instrumental in securing Israel's early survival). On the other hand, the Soviets were quite willing to use Jews as scapegoats when required. The high proportion of high-ranking political victims during the purges could be xplained simply by the fact that there was an overall high proportion of Jews in the highest circles of the communist hierarchy.

"Yes, I didn't grow up in the eastern bloc. Apparently the only acceptable argument is one based on unaccountable personal anecdotal stories, in your view."

Putin has a point. The "you didn't grow up there argument" can actually be used on both sides of the debate. For example "communism sucks". "Did you grow up in Russia". "No". "Well you don't know what you are talking about". And vice versa.

Still it is good to hear from people like ivo and ulytau who did grow up under communism. I think Ivo's point about about the benefits of low unemployment being negated by the lack of work choices is compelling: "Where you lived and where you worked, in the communist states, was decided by the state. You don't apply for a job - when you graduate you are assigned to some company and you stay there until they decide to assign you some place else. You cannot change workplaces or move to another town at your own will." And the low wages: "When the average salary is less than 200 USD (which is what it was for the whole eastern block in 1988)".

I acknowledge that not every eastern blocker feels like Ivo. I read one article which said 49% of east Germans liked the old days better. Stats like that make me question the dystopian nightmare that many of us conceive when we think of communism.

"Stalin's mural was prominent in the kibbutzim - I'm sure it wouldn't have been so if he had wanted to slaughter all the Jews. To be fair though, I'm not sure what your point was. It seemed a bit paranoid. I don't think Putin was advocating anything antisemitic."

Im responding to Putin's use of Antisemitism as a football from which to excuse Soviet crimes. Poles had antisemetic elements, so therefor by pointing out soviet crimes against poles we are defending anti semites in his estimation. I'm saying lets be consistent here.


"SC, Russian Jews were far better (at least in term's of antisemitism) in Stalin's russia than the tzar's."

Thats like saying african Americans were better off under Jim Crow rather than slavery. Were Jews being killed by the hundreds in pogroms, not to the same extent, but if you think Stalin's russia was a friendly place for jews, i suggest you read about the night of murdered poets and the doctors plot. Stalin was a raging anti-semite and the soviet state under stalin (after WWII) diseminated a great deal of anti-semetic propaganda.

Was he a pure machine of Jewish murder and hatred, of course not, he was a complex man and i would not like to make absolutes. He supported the founding of Israel and armed the independence fighters. But if we are going to talk anti-semitism in post-wwii you cannot ignore stalin

I didn't grow up under communism. But if I did, it would be definitely better than grewing up in Ostland (unless I would be an Übermensch, of course). Eastern bloc was not a paradise per se but compared to what Nazis created and planned to create, it sure was.

And the Ostalgie is an interesting phenomenon. Partial explanations might be that GDR was a showcase of Eastern bloc, everyday life was somewhat comfortable, and the way some Wessis treat Ossis is somewhat similar to the way some Flemish treat Walloons or Lega Nordists treat southern Italians - as lazy parazites. Not exactly a recipe for successful cohabitation. But what do I know.

Sorry ulytau? Where are you from? I though you said Czech Republic? I must have mixed up one of your posts with someone else?

I was born on the second day of the existence of the Czech and Slovak Federal Republic. While the parliament still had a sizeable amount of old communists (although probably smaller than today), I couldn't have grown up during communism.

Ah so too young. Time flies so fast. It's ancient history already.

Wow, I see there is a sizable number of Czechs in here. The fact that the Communist party has been getting cca 10 / of the popular vote ever since the revolution (that is not too bad, compared with the Baltic republics for example - or even Poland at times) should just prove that there is a significant minority of people who view the communist period as preferable over the current capitalist establishment -.and that, quite sadly, this minority is not dying out but is being refreshed by people who have little or no experience with the actual communist experience. But as J. S. Mill would say - it is not their fault, it is the fault of those at power not being able to argue in favor of their ideas.

@Putin
"Ivo, I'm not impressed by the fact that you're from Bulgaria. I also find it disgusting that you think if the Nazis had won and exterminated all Jews and Slavs, it'd have made no difference for the world than the fact that they lost. That speaks volumes about you, however. "

You see, that's part of the problem with you. I said the communists were not better than the Nazi's and you somehow decided I want all jews and slavs exterminated. Where did I say this? I'm a slav btw - and not suicidal. If you want people to respond and take you serious, you have to stop imagining things and lying all the time. Makes you look like a stupid asshole. Of course I'm not going to put much effort talking with someone that stupid...

Now, to give you a specific example of what I mean - yesterday was 25 years since Chernobil - so let me tell you how the communist regimes in eastern Europe and the USSR acted when this happened.

1. For six days after the incident, despite the governments having enough information about what's happening, nothing was shared with the general public. There wasn't event a note in the press about an incident.
2. Ironically, two days after the incident there was an article about a minor accident in some UK nuclear plant.
3. Six days after the incident, the main newspaper in Bulgaria came up with an article titled "The lies of the western media about Chernobil" - which explained in detail how this all was a capitalist propaganda and that nothing had happened.
4. We had a 'workers manifestation' on May 1st - celebrating International Workers Day - which involved thousands of people marching on town squares all over the country. All of this while there was radioactive rain falling down on the people.
5. It took 8 days until the first information came out - stating there was some real incident and that maybe some radiation got out. You can check this - but again, ironically, I think the first 8 days are the most dangerous - this is how long it takes for the radioactive isotopes to dissipate and become half as risky.

So, my point is simple:
- the Nazis were crazy, but at least they did not kill their own, to such an extent, in order to keep- up appearances and protect the image of their ideology.

A couple more points:
- When Moses took the Jews out of Egypt they had to wander for 40 years, until a generation was gone - the people who were thinking like slaves and were moaning about how hard it is. The same process is happening in former communist countries. It takes time. Of course there would be people nostalgic about the past. There always are. You're a good example actually :)
- When the Germans entered Kiev in WWII, they were greeted by half a million people, who cheered them as liberators.
- In case you didn't know it, the USSR was comprised on 15 republics. Additionally, you had a dozen nations in Eastern Europe, who were also effectively occupied. As soon as someone tried to break lose the tanks came rolling in. You failed to respond to the main question in my previous post - and until you do I'll not give any more arguments, but will just conclude you're as stupid as you seem...

So, please, let me know:
- why can't commies win elections like normal people
- why do they always use force to stay in power and put to the slaughter all their opponents

I mean, is there any difference in the approach to others, between a school bully with deranged ideas and a communist party?

Guys it would be so much better if everyone could stop the name calling.
Sometimes arguments are wrong and sometimes arguments are misunderstood - but no one here is a stupid/evil/Nazi/asshole (really). The fate of the world is not at stake. We engage in these debates because they are fun and occasionally educational. And in order to have a debate we need people take opposing sides. So we are fortunate to have some educated and articulate free-market liberals and an educated articulate Stalinist. Otherwise how could we have a debate about communism versus capitalism?

I am going to guess Putin's answers to these questions. He can tell me if I am right or wrong.
Q. "-why can't commies win elections like normal people
A. Because the media is controlled by the capitalist moguls, and the media brainwashes people into voting for parties who maintain the (capitalist) status quo.
Q. why do they always use force to stay in power and put to the slaughter all their opponents"
A. Because the capitalist moguls are determined to regain power and will stop at nothing. They are well armed and violent (and usually backed by the USA). The capitalist also slaughter their opponents - not necessarily in their own countries but in developing countries where they support puppet capitalist regimes, who brutally suppress the people.

That is my crude stab at it. (I think ivo's questions are good ones though, and deserve better answers than what I can come up with).

Regarding the media, I should add that while there is some truth in " the media is controlled by capitalist moguls", I don't think the goal of the media is to preserve the system through propaganda (unlike communist media). Rather the goal of the media is to sell as many newspapers possible and to achieve high television ratings (etc) as possible. And for the most part this goal is without thought any thought of the consequences for the status quo. Furthermore in the liberal world so many media choices that if we want to find a balanced picture we can - we have freedom of speech. Which, if I recall correctly, if Putin33's revolution were to occur we would no longer have.

correction... if Putin33's revolution were to *succeed

@spyman
1. I'll stop the name-calling when Putin stops implying I'm a Nazi... otherwise, he is a stupid asshole.
2. Here's my interpretation of your responses:
- clearly communists are all poor and have no money to buy the media
- clearly all communists are not well educated and elaborate enough to deal with the media and general public to 'sell' their ideology
- clearly communists believe that the only way to deal with people who think different is to kill/imprison them

To repeat myself - what is the difference between this and a school bully...

And, more importantly, why would I want someone who's not competent enough to make a living and have his opinion heard like everyone else to rule me with an iron fist.

The Soviet Union was nothing more than a dictatorship with an ideology. Whether it's political ideology (fascism/communism) or religious one (Muslim/christian fundamentalists) - makes no difference really.

Stalin had more time than Hitler, so he killed and tortured and imprisoned more people. Mao killed even more (bigger population in China).