@ obiwan: "I've said it before, I'll say it again"

Repeating yourself does not make you right.

"But you have ONCE to back or even take the slightest interest or care in any Jews, anywhere, at any point during this, INCLUDING those who say their synagogues burned down and shops attacked across France."

That's bullshit. I was the only one who brought attention to the firebombing of synagogues by your Ukrainian friends. You couldn't care less. You like to step on the backs of suffering Jews only when it suits Israel's agenda of aggression. In all other instances you are nowhere to be found.

"I've said repeatedly I back Abbas' efforts in the West Bank..."

No you don't. He's opposed to Israeli aggression and Abbas agreed to the unity government, so you're full of it. 2,000 civilians killed, and you continue to defend the targeting of civilian targets.

"I'd rather ask Japan or Germany circa 1945"

Is that your not-so-subtle way of expressing support for the nuking and Dresden-fire bombing of Gaza?

"Is that your not-so-subtle way of expressing support for the nuking and Dresden-fire bombing of Gaza?"

...No...that's my listing two examples of instances where replacing a government via force was a good thing.

"No you don't. He's opposed to Israeli aggression and Abbas agreed to the unity government, so you're full of it. 2,000 civilians killed, and you continue to defend the targeting of civilian targets."

1. He ALSO would've preferred Hamas not break the 72-hour ceasefire so this thing could actually be talked out or, at the very least, give the Palestinians a 3 day break from this. I support that. Hamas did not. That's not what I'd call a functioning "unity" government, when the leader says to do A and a faction does B because of its own political agenda, regardless of how badly the people it alleges to defend desperately need A.

2. I support targeting Hamas. I've said, oh, about 50 times now--if they want to come out and fight in the open, AWAY from civilians, I 100% guarantee the IDF not only would be fine with that, hell, they'd give them a head start. HAMAS is making this a war based in civilian areas, has admitted to using human shields in videos I've linked, and I'm not going to ask a nation to stop responding to its national sovereignty being violated or to stop its military operations because the other side is deliberately choosing to out civilians in harm's way.

You can say they don't all you like...they're on record saying they use human shields, you need to call THEM liars on that point if you're going to argue that point.

"That's bullshit. I was the only one who brought attention to the firebombing of synagogues by your Ukrainian friends. You couldn't care less."

Now I get to say, "bullshit"--I cared, so much so as to post a whole thread about that "Jews must register" fiasco, if you'll recall. But as the Jews in the area were ALSO quoted as saying they feared Putin more than Ukrainians...I tend to defer to the Jews who actually live in the area, rather than someone who names himself after the enemy of the Ukrainian people.

Are you going to tell me you know what and who Jews in that area fear more than those Jews themselves?

"You like to step on the backs of suffering Jews only when it suits Israel's agenda of aggression. In all other instances you are nowhere to be found."

Again, I POSTED ABOUT THE UKRAINE/JEW ISSUE AND *YOU* WERE THE *FIRST* TO DEBATE MY DOING SO...

So piss off on that account, you Antisemitic Stalinist prick--

You support and glorify people responsible for killing millions of my people, do so without remorse, couldn't give two shits about the Jews suffering now (except for, to use your own term, when it suits your "agenda"...didn't seem too concerned about those Ukrainian Jews when I posted about it then, but suddenly you care so very much? And I've yet to hear you give two shits about the French Jews being attacked and persecuted by pro-Hamas Franco-Muslim mobs) and after calling me out in the past for allegedly being TOO vocal about Jewish suffering, Antisemitism, and my Jewishness, you're REALLY gonna argue I don't care?

Of course you will.

Because this is Putin Land, where you can tell Native Americans their opinion is invalid and yours is regarding Native American imagery, and tell the guy most openly-vocal about Jews on this site that he doesn't give a shit about them after writing Obi post after Obi post about them for years, often contra you yourself.

No you liar. You've said nothing about the synagogues. You posted the "Jews must register" lie that turned out to be a total fabrication by the Kiev authorities, because your sole agenda was to attack Russians.

You completely ignored the anti-semitism of the Praviy Sektor and you continue to do so.

You're a fraud. Everything about you is fake. The biggest fraud of all is your so-called concern for Jews.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/18/antisemitic-donetsk-peoples-republic-ukraine-hoax

The chief rabbi claims the flyer you were pushing was a fake, you neo-con lemming.

You openly side with fascists in Ukrain but you think by using your a noun, a verb, and "anti-semitic filth" routine you can get away with it.

@Jamiet:

I'll also say this on the subject of Israel being brutal--

If the Gazans were led by another group (hell, if they were led by Tories, lol...I kid, I kid) I would be far more critical of Israel's use of force.

I feel that Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS--these are malicious forces that are enough of a threat in both their armament and ideology that I will support what IS an extraordinary amount of force to be rid of them. In the Gaza-specific case, this is also because I'd rather Hamas be ended or at least severely weakened than have to do this again in 3 years, the way we've just had 3 wars in 8 years, but in the broader sense I also feel that an organization like Hamas, or Hezbollah, or the Muslim Brotherhood, or ISIS is so malignant and its ideologies and attitudes towards minorities, women, and the world at large are so malicious and dangerous that they cannot be allowed to continue or grow.

I'd actually point to ISIS as an example of this--given how savage they're being, and the fact they captured 1000 women to do God knows what to them yesterday, this is a group that MUST be eliminated...but one that was not utterly eliminated when we had the chance. We left remains of the fore-bearers of what ISIS is today behind after fighting in Iraq (I'm not justifying that war, just saying that we left remnants behind) and now that cancer has spread.

That's what I'd describe these groups as, socio-political cancer, and Israel's operations are akin to chemotherapy--

They ARE devastating, and there IS a lot of collateral damage, and a lot of non-cancerous elements ARE hurt or damaged by the process...

But you take chemo because the short-term hell of it is supposed to be better than the eventual long-term suffering and death that is the alternative.

Israel's operations are nowhere near as benign morally as chemo is, but I'd argue it has the same purpose, and that that's why it needs to be so brutal--because, like chemo, it needs to be THOROUGH...you can't have this stuff creep back, or it'll be even more devastating the next time around (and looking at this war vs. both the 2012 and even the 2008 Gaza Wars, that fact is sustained.)

I take the Utilitarian line here, that the good of more people being saved/benefiting/being spared in the long-term by way of this operation either ending or weakening Hamas so badly that it cannot wage war again for some time outweighs the incredible, awful short-term harm--

Which is to emphasize just how agonizing that long-term harm WOULD be.

If you can argue the opposite, that the short-term harm outweighs the long-term good of preventing this from happening again/ending Hamas' capacity to do this again for a very long time, then that'd be the best shot at an argument that could sway me on this...because Hamas is SO reprehensible that I (like you) can't side with them, in any capacity, and at this point I find Israel on par with the Utilitarian side of short-term/long-term ethics.

Doesn't mean they're moral, as again, the right thing =/= the morally right thing all the time. If you look at this as a Kantian, then yeah...you're going to be tearing your hair out at just about every last player involved in this.

"No you liar. You've said nothing about the synagogues."

O.o

I've posted about French synagogues being burnt in this thread ALONE like 5 times, what the hell are you talking about...I was talking about those synagogues?

"You couldn't care less"
"No you liar."
"You have been their prime defender"
"Can you do that?"
"Why don't you question"
"you filthy Anti-Semite"
"And how nice you care about one group and not another."

You, you, you, you, you again!

"You're a fraud. Everything about you is fake. The biggest fraud of all is your so-called concern for Jews."

Yeah...you officially forfeit your right to question anyone on concern for Jews when you're a Stalinist (you may think he didn't have a problem with the Jews, the rest of us ain't buying it.)

And given that you've taken issue specifically with my allegedly caring more about the Jews than the Palestinians this whole time, that's a pretty neat trick, to claim that and then claim that I both care about the Jews more and yet don't care about the Jews at all.

Also--I've written tens of thousands of words now defending them...at times, being the only person here defending them on this war...

So, again, kindly shove it. You're no more fit to comment on Jews to me than you are to lecture Chaqa about what Native Americans should or shouldn't think.

Any other groups you want to appropriate and say you know better than/care more about than its actual representatives here?

"You support and glorify people responsible for killing millions of my people"

What are you talking about? I support and glorify people responsible for *saving* your people, you dumbass. You spit on the army that liberated them and spit on the Jewish communists worldwide that defeated the Hitlerite hordes. You have no problem defending a government that pointed nuclear weapons at people who suffered millions in civilian losses merely a year after these atrocities occurred. Your supposed concern for genocide is just the latest in your shameful attempts to emotionally manipulate people while exploiting the suffering of others in order to defend barbaric warcrimes.

"Yeah...you officially forfeit your right to question anyone on concern for Jews when you're a Stalinist"

Plenty of Jews were "Stalinists" and the "Stalinist" army single handedly defeated the Nazis. You'd have preferred it if the Nazis had won. That much is clear.

"You openly side with fascists in Ukrain but you think by using your a noun, a verb, and "anti-semitic filth" routine you can get away with it."

Tell me...

How come you can claim to side with Palestinians but NOT Hamas specifically, but I can't back the Ukrainian people but NOT the Neo-Nazi elements specifically?

Hamas and those Neo-Nazis are both involved in the governments for their respective groups...in fact, Hamas IS the government wholesale in Gaza, along with Islamic Jihad and other affiliated groups...

"And given that you've taken issue specifically with my allegedly caring more about the Jews than the Palestinians this whole time, that's a pretty neat trick, to claim that and then claim that I both care about the Jews more and yet don't care about the Jews at all."

You only care about Jewish lives when it means you can justify annihilating Palestinians. If those Jewish lives can't be exploited for Israeli political ends you don't give a shit.

"Plenty of Jews were "Stalinists" and the "Stalinist" army single handedly defeated the Nazis. You'd have preferred it if the Nazis had won. That much is clear."

No, I'd have preferred the Nazis and Stalinists to have cleansed the world of their respective evil filth TOGETHER...BOTH killed so many Jews...and Poles...and gays...

But you couldn't care less!

And hey, who here listens to Wagner, you Antisemitic prick!

FUCK YOU for saying I'd root for the Nazis when my grandfather fought them...oh, and fought them for a side that DIDN'T feature the only leader to somehow out-murder even Hitler himself.

I'd have LOVED to see you live in Stalinist Russia...believe me...

I hope you build a time machine and go right back there. Enjoy yourself. Please.

"You only care about Jewish lives when it means you can justify annihilating Palestinians. If those Jewish lives can't be exploited for Israeli political ends you don't give a shit."

I do, so much so that you've told me in the past to stop flaunting my pride and love of my people...

SO SHUT IT, YOU FUCKER.

"What are you talking about? I support and glorify people responsible for *saving* your people, you dumbass."'

ABSOLUTELY *ZERO* OTHER PEOPLE HERE BUY THE STALINIST SOVIETS AS PRO-JEWISH OR THAT THEY DIDN'T KILL JEWS ON THEIR OWN.

FUCK. OFF.

THAT'S THE EQUIVALENT OF TELLING A NATIVE AMERICAN THEY OUGHTA BE THANKFUL TO CUSTER.

"How come you can claim to side with Palestinians but NOT Hamas specifically, but I can't back the Ukrainian people but NOT the Neo-Nazi elements specifically?"

One wonders why you support a government that you admit has neo-Nazis in it, but yet you're willing to carpet bomb and destroy Gaza because of Hamas. I guess your racial hatred of Russians exceeds your supposed solidarity with Jews. And the entire government is anti-semitic, not just the Neo-Nazis. But never you mind. You can't be bothered to concern yourself with these things.

"THAT'S THE EQUIVALENT OF TELLING A NATIVE AMERICAN THEY OUGHTA BE THANKFUL TO CUSTER."

I love it when Israel apologists equate themselves to Native Americans, as if Palestinians weren't the Native Americans of the Middle East.

Jesus Christ it's like watching two dudes taking turns hitting each other in the balls.

Tendmote, you lost your credibility with your never-ending tonality lectures when you decided to, without provocation, ad-homenize a thread simply because you didn't like my opinions. You even admitted to doing so.

So if you're going to get back on the Dad Lecture Circuit, how about you clean up your own act. Thanks.

This is never going to end!

Putin33 has supported the Kims, Mugabe, Stalin, Putin, as legitimate "good guys". What are the odds that *all* of them are good guys? Pretty small. Subtract that from 1.0 and you've got the odds that Putin33 is a bullshitter.

So can you prove him wrong? Probably not, because he's a debater. But Putin33 can make a skilled and not-definitively-refutable argument for *so many things* that it undermines his credibility.

Obiwanobiwan I just can't keep reading all the screamy horseshit you're typing. Stop making NigeeBaby look like a prognosticator instead of an asshole.

Must break this loop... must break this loop...

You didn't break the loop. You just recycled the cleanse.

What is your agenda, anyway? You're fond of psycho-analyzing everybody else.

What's the odds of the US/UK/France/Germany/Japan and the rest of NATO all being good guys?

Pretty small.

Guess most people are bullshitters then.

The only conclusion I draw from you is that yours are the only acceptable opinions in the universe. That seems to be the only message you provide in your posts.

I'd like to see these threads be an actual discussion of ideas instead of a chess-match. Nobody has to win.

It's actually commonplace for a skilled argument to "win" a case for something that has no reality in the world. The "truths" that arise out of debate should only be accepted at a significant discount. "Winning the thread" isn't actually worth that much either to the reader or the winner.

But the argument keeps escalating and expanding beyond the topic in the effort to defeat the other person to get the cheap win.

All this irrefutable, but unconvincing, contrariness is just narcissistic, and it's hijacking every topic.

Deeper still it's not worth reading.

"Guess most people are bullshitters then."

That's the most intelligent (see: only intelligent) thing you've said all thread.

"So can you prove him wrong?"

I could care less about changing his mind...his isn't a mind worth changing anyway, at this point, once you get to the point of Stalin Worship (ah! The Daily Cleanse DOES feel good...now, if only I could flush such trenchant shit as this away once and for all...)

But if he keeps serving up such shit as that, I have to hit back at it.

As for two guys taking turns hitting each other, tendmote...

Try two sides exchanging mortar fire.

obi-goebbels posted,..."You support and glorify people responsible for killing millions of my people, do so without remorse, couldn't give two shits about the Jews suffering now..."

Oh pity the poor suffering Jews. Oh those horrible Mercedes Benz dealerships, with their high lease rates. Oh those stupid degenerate goyim legislators and their usury laws. Oh those blonde shiksas, with their tennis outfits and their blowjobs. When will it end.....