Copy-pasting this since we're starting a new page, and I want this seen...check Page 11 for the associated story/link:

@Putin, Chairman, Jamiet (I hate to lump you in with that company, sorry)--

Tell me what the endgame for Hamas is here? What are they going to achieve, when one demand they won't budge on is lifting a blockade...

That both the opposing party AND the mediating party both INSIST upon.

Israel and Egypt are not lifting that blockade. Period.
And Hamas cannot win this war militarily. Period.
And Hamas cannot break that Israel/Egypt alliance. Period.
Not with the Muslim Brotherhood now outlawed in Egypt.

So...tell me--what's your endgame? Do you have one that you wish to see Hamas achieve (and if so, what is it? How is that going to happen under these circumstance) and if you don't...well, then why do you enjoy encouraging this cycle of violence to continue WITHOUT an endgame?

What's the endgame?

your attributing of hamas circumstances and motivations to us personally is pretty troubling obi. I do hope you are keeping firm grip on what is reality and what isn't

That said, what endgame is there? There is no endgame. That much is pretty clear. Israel are intent on extermination and there isn't going to be any other path. You've expressed this multiple times and as much as Palestinian people try to do something different, Israel will always be there to stand in the way. You're right, the blockade won't ever be lifted. Hamas cannot ever win. The Palestinian people are ultimately doomed and it's unfortunate you and the Israeli people can't see this.

And a reminder here that none of us on this side have ever encouraged the cycle of violence. I've repeatedly said that Israel has to make concessions to end this war. You've been the only one who has continually and purposefully called for the extermination of one side. You perpetuate the cycle of violence more than anyone.

"your attributing of hamas circumstances and motivations to us personally is pretty troubling obi. I do hope you are keeping firm grip on what is reality and what isn't"

You have been their prime defender (along with Putin) this entire time...not merely defending the Palestinians, but specifically defending Hamas when I argue for their dissolution and at other moments.

"That said, what endgame is there? There is no endgame."

Then why continue a war that has no endgame?

"Israel are intent on extermination and there isn't going to be any other path."

You know, Chairman...when I said Hamas threatened to exterminate the Jews, I backed it up with quotes and video...

Can you provide the same, a direct quote from a person integral to Israeli policy--not just someone shouting out there on the fringe...if we're going to play that game, then we'd have to consider the KKK to be representative of the American majority as well--that in explicit and in no uncertain terms speaks to the extermination of the Palestinian people, with that word itself (since my quote DID literally involve that word specifically, "exterminate the Jews to the last one.)

Can you do that?

"You've expressed this multiple times and as much as Palestinian people try to do something different, Israel will always be there to stand in the way. You're right, the blockade won't ever be lifted. Hamas cannot ever win. The Palestinian people are ultimately doomed and it's unfortunate you and the Israeli people can't see this."

1. If Hamas cannot ever win...why support them? There's a difference between "Hamas can never win" and "The Palestinians can never win," right? We've beat this to death, that the Palestinians =/= Hamas, not wholesale? Then if Hamas can't win and these tactics can't win, why do you back both vs. Israel?

2. ...Wait, so on the one hand, you accuse Israel of dooming the Palestinians via their own malice, and on the other hand, you say "the Israeli people can't see this?" O.o Well...which is it?

Pretty hard to do something out of malice when you're oblivious to what you're doing...

"And a reminder here that none of us on this side have ever encouraged the cycle of violence. I've repeatedly said that Israel has to make concessions to end this war. You've been the only one who has continually and purposefully called for the extermination of one side. You perpetuate the cycle of violence more than anyone."

1. That's a bold-faced lie, I called for the end of a political party, NOT the extermination of the Palestinians OR Israelis. Try again.

2. Yes, by backing Hamas and their actions, and then admitting those actions both cannot win and only lead to more responses and more deaths, you ARE backing a cycle of violence.

To put #1 as clearly as possible--

Wanting the Tories to come to an end is NOT the same as calling for the extermination of the British people, is it?

Poor example, obi -- that actually kind of is.

It's not just bad, it's not an applicable example. You can't call for the elimination of an entire government and expect them to simply be replaced. That would turn into a diplomatic and domestic meltdown. Someone with a clue how to function a rocket that didn't rise 100 feet and then fall down on the opposite side of the road would be shooting rockets from Gaza then instead of Hamas.

Calling for the unseating of the Tories from whatever house of whatever they hold in Britain is entirely different than that.

"
Then why continue a war that has no endgame?"

You might as well ask why the Jews decided to rise up in the ghettos. Repressed people are always going to fight when pushed into a corner. Doesn't mean it's always a winning fight

"Can you provide the same, a direct quote from a person integral to Israeli policy--not just someone shouting out there on the fringe...if we're going to play that game, then we'd have to consider the KKK to be representative of the American majority as well--that in explicit and in no uncertain terms speaks to the extermination of the Palestinian people, with that word itself (since my quote DID literally involve that word specifically, "exterminate the Jews to the last one.)

Can you do that? "

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan

that was easy

"1. If Hamas cannot ever win...why support them? There's a difference between "Hamas can never win" and "The Palestinians can never win," right? We've beat this to death, that the Palestinians =/= Hamas, not wholesale? Then if Hamas can't win and these tactics can't win, why do you back both vs. Israel?"

I'll support whoever the Palestinians decided to support, and for a large part of them that was Hamas. They would have been under the regime of a new government with no Hamas officials in it if Israel had not purposefully stood in the way. I would have much preferred that.

"2. ...Wait, so on the one hand, you accuse Israel of dooming the Palestinians via their own malice, and on the other hand, you say "the Israeli people can't see this?" O.o Well...which is it?"

these statements aren't contradictory, though I may be a bit lenient with Israelis, because a lot of them seem to know exactly what they're doing
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

"Tell me what the endgame for Hamas is here? What are they going to achieve, when one demand they won't budge on is lifting a blockade..."

The Hamas end-game is in writing. Very moderate demands. The one red-line is opening a port in Gaza.

That seems like a very minimal demand. The real question is why Israel won't agree to it.

And as Sheng-ji already explained, the answer to that is easy. Israel seeks extermination.

"You might as well ask why the Jews decided to rise up in the ghettos. Repressed people are always going to fight when pushed into a corner. Doesn't mean it's always a winning fight"

They HAD an endgame... -_-

And if the best you can do is repeatedly Godwin yourself with a Nazi reference...

As to your "source"...

If Palwatch wasn't a fair resource, why is ElectronicIntifada?

Seems like a double standard, you can use a biased source and I can't...and at least I provided the video from Al-Aqsa, Hamas' own broadcast feed...care to do that, or would you like to complain to me about biased sources while providing your own?

And "exterminate nets of resistance" =/= "exterminate the Jews to the last one."

There's a difference between ending Hamas' resistance and ending AN ENTIRE ETHNO-RELIGIOUS GROUP. -_-

"The Hamas end-game is in writing. Very moderate demands. The one red-line is opening a port in Gaza.

That seems like a very minimal demand. The real question is why Israel won't agree to it."

1. Why don't you question why Egypt won't agree to such things, either?

2. I think I addressed why above--they don't want things getting into Gaza without their supervision, given that things that go into Gaza have a habit of being shot or tunneled back into Israel?

I do question it. But why does that let Israel off the hook? Israel is the occupying power that enforces the blockade. And if Israel wanted to open a port, Egypt likely would agree to it.

"There's a difference between ending Hamas' resistance and ending AN ENTIRE ETHNO-RELIGIOUS GROUP. -_-"

Plenty of genocidal quotes by mainstream figures have been provided in this conversation by mainstream news sources. You've steadfastly ignored them all.

As to my example--fine, fair enough...just trying to say government =/= the people here...

"It's not just bad, it's not an applicable example. You can't call for the elimination of an entire government and expect them to simply be replaced."

It's been done before?

Pretty sure abusive governments have been taken out before with new ones installed...what's more, AGAIN, the replacement is already waiting in the wings--

Abbas' party.

Fatah was present in Gaza once, it can be again...and maybe with Abbas in control rather than Hamas (headquartered in Qatar, supplied by Iran, and an outgrowth of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood...HARDLY an inextricable force) and a Palestinian government that's unified in practice as well as in name, maybe we could make some progress.

Hamas is not working, and cannot work.

It can be replaced, or it can continue not to work.

So, we all agree Obi/Israel demands extermination, while Hamas demands ending the blockade.

Who is the extremist?

"and a Palestinian government that's unified in practice as well as in name"

We could have had that, Israel destroyed the unity government. Let's not pretend Israel is interested in Palestinian unity.

"I do question it. But why does that let Israel off the hook?"

It doesn't--I'm just sick and tired of only one of the two parties to that blockade being mentioned...it's not like Israel is alone in doing that OR alone in its judgment of the situation and Hamas here...

So, yeah, I'd like more discussion of the Egyptian stance. Seems relevant, as they are (were?) the mediators here, and the ones also keeping this blockade up.

"And if Israel wanted to open a port, Egypt likely would agree to it."

Give me a reason to believe that's so, or it's just conjecture...seems like they have as much a reason to want to keep the blockade as Israel, given that they ousted the Muslim Brotherhood and want as little to do with Hamas as Israel.

"Plenty of genocidal quotes by mainstream figures have been provided in this conversation by mainstream news sources. You've steadfastly ignored them all."

People saying "It's a genocide" does not make it so...

There are specific "rules" for considering a genocide a genocide...and biased sources editorializing and saying its so does not make it so, whereas I provided a primary source/quote/video, two if you count my quoting Hamas' charter...

"So, we all agree Obi/Israel demands extermination, while Hamas demands ending the blockade."

I didn't call for that, at all, you filthy Anti-Semite...

And how nice you care about one group and not another...you still couldn't give a shit about Hamas threatening to exterminate Jews...do you just throw on that Wagner and fantasize about Jews meeting with Hamas' fiery plans?

Israel govt members just seem to come across as self-righteous arseholes, a bit like Obi.
I don't know much about the anti-semitic movement but what is annoying are Jews who receive a bit of criticism for something they say or do and then start waving the 'anti-semitism' card, rather than just accepting that they are in fact a complete arse.
Is this a particular trait of Judaism where there is an above average number of arrogant arseholes who swan around winding-up other people in other religions because they treat them like Israelis treat Gazans; I know a number of Jewish people and they don't behave in an untoward reckless violent manner, it is the extremely religious lot that are causing all of the bother and if so why do 'normal' Israelis keep voting them in to power, is Israel society full of arrogant arseholes also who think it is ok to treat non-Jews absolutely shit.
On my travels abroad I remember some Israelis being a bit arrogant and a bit insular, in particular the men.
Someone chuck me a fricking bone here because it sounds like Israel as a nation has to change, not just the politicians or the religious fundamentalists, maybe some of the people who think they are normal, have Israelis really got anything to be proud of?
Israel was created by the allies after the 2nd World War, should we not give Israel up as a bad idea, looking back how was that ever supposed to work?

"Is this a particular trait of Judaism where there is an above average number of arrogant arseholes who swan around..."

Thanks for being the living emodiment of casual Antisemitism there, Nigee.

Yeah, Jews are just arrogant arseholes, ain't we?

(Especially we atheistic ones who take issue with people trying to exterminate us and justify it by twisting around ANOTHER religion's words!)

"@Putin, Chairman, Jamiet-

"Tell me what the endgame for Hamas is here?"

Why are you asking me to speak for Hamas. I'm not a supporter of Hamas. I'm simply opposed to the slaughter and suppression of Palestinian civilians, and I'm opposed to the Israeli government, for whom the suppression of the entire Palestinian people is a key ongoing policy goal.

I'm not here to speak for Hamas, I'm here to speak against Israel's brutality, which you are defending.

"There are specific "rules" for considering a genocide a genocide...and biased sources editorializing and saying its so does not make it so, whereas I provided a primary source/quote/video, two if you count my quoting Hamas' charter..."

Those rules are not "Jews can say and do whatever they want, and it'll never be genocide."

I've cited a plethora of quotes advocating genocide. You've ignored them all. I don't take your concern about it seriously at all.

"So, yeah, I'd like more discussion of the Egyptian stance. Seems relevant, as they are (were?) the mediators here, and the ones also keeping this blockade up."

Yes, it is very relevant. Which is why their "ceasefire" proposals were a farce and a set-up and designed to give Israel leverage. But glad you agree that Egypt is fully in league with Israel and is anything but an impartial mediator.

As even the slavishly pro-Israel Weekly Standard admits, the crossing controlled by Israel isn't important in terms of Gaza's economic needs. Gaza gets its basic needs through crossings along Israel's side.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/why-egypt-should-keep-rafah-crossing-closed_802193.html

So stop trying to deflect.

"And how nice you care about one group and not another."

Projection much?

*crossing controlled by Egypt, that is. The Rafah crossing is not economically vital, the Israeli crossings are.

"I'm not here to speak for Hamas, I'm here to speak against Israel's brutality, which you are defending."

I'm defending their operations as necessary, NOT as morally good.

I've said it before, I'll say it again--the politically-smart thing isn't always the morally-sound thing, and to continue to allow Hamas to fight war after war after war like this isn't smart...

So I "defend" Israel's operations insofar as I think the brutal nature of this war in the short-term is preferable to fighting this again and again and again and losing even MORE lives in the long-term.

3 wars in 8 years...I'd rather this be the final one, even if that means it being the most brutal, rather than fighting another 3 just like this.

"I've cited a plethora of quotes advocating genocide. You've ignored them all. I don't take your concern about it seriously at all."

A *PRIMARY* source, Putin...I have it from a Hamas person's own mouth, in video form and, again, in the form of their charter...

You have given 1. People H.H described as being on the fringe, and 2. Secondary sources calling this something, NOT a primary source.

"Yes, it is very relevant. Which is why their "ceasefire" proposals were a farce and a set-up and designed to give Israel leverage. But glad you agree that Egypt is fully in league with Israel and is anything but an impartial mediator."

I do agree...but given that Turkey and Qatar are in Hamas' corner, they weren't exactly impartial mediators, either...and impartial or no, if Hamas truly cared about putting its people first, it'd at the very least heed the wishes of the Palestinian Authority, rather than defying it.

"As even the slavishly pro-Israel Weekly Standard admits, the crossing controlled by Israel isn't important in terms of Gaza's economic needs. Gaza gets its basic needs through crossings along Israel's side."

That's nice...you don't open your borders during a conflict, especially when you're opening them to people who promise genocide.

I know you like to deflect away from that little fact, or else don't care, but still...

And carpet bombing/invading countries because you don't like a political party is politically smart? You might want to ask Afghanistan and Iraq about that.

""And how nice you care about one group and not another."

Projection much?"

I've said repeatedly I back Abbas' efforts in the West Bank...

But you have ONCE to back or even take the slightest interest or care in any Jews, anywhere, at any point during this, INCLUDING those who say their synagogues burned down and shops attacked across France.

"And carpet bombing/invading countries because you don't like a political party is politically smart? You might want to ask Afghanistan and Iraq about that."

I'd rather ask Japan or Germany circa 1945 (we've already Godwinned, so, when in Rome...er, when in Berlin and Tokyo...)