Yeah, that's exactly I declined. I am soooo afraid of your diplomatic prowess as you clearly showed in our game. Your record and the way you can convince people to agree with you are just beyond my wildest dreams. By the way, our game ended in a stalemate position if you know what that means.

If you go back and look at the previous posts, you can see what people thought of your ability to debate. I think I got a +2 for just stating how well you have done.

To answer the question of what is meta-gaming... I believe the majority of the community (and mods, though I cannot specifically speak for them) has defined meta-gaming as allowing circumstances outside of that specific game (itself) to influence how you play.

This includes things such as "hey, you are my friend IRL... let's kill everyone else in the game since you are my friend, and agree never to attack each other" or "Hey zultar, remember how vaft stabbed us last game? Let's get him back this game by killing him first." These demonstrate how events/circumstances outside of the game being played are influencing decisions made in that game.

It does not mean tools/methods of communication. Sending a URL is simply a method of communication. In a full press game, it's just another attempt to sway someone's actions. It's one thing for Germany and Russia to ally based upon in-game dynamics or using a type of press/tool for persuasion (including URLs) to form the alliance. It's another thing entirely (and the definition of metagaming) for Germany and Russia to ally because they are best friends outside of the game; or are married; or because they don't like Bob because he stabbed them 6 months ago in another game and they want revenge in this one.

Yeah Draug, but if you don't have the address bar on the screen, that's suspicious. Right away, having the address bar on the screen becomes a requirement for a _trustworthy_ image (or MORE trustworthy image), so we're back to photoshoppers having an advantage.

"Send it again, but with the address bar."

Wow, I checked this website earlier today and saw the beginnings of the thread. I wanted to post a response, but was reading it from my phone and didn't have time to do so at that point. I'm come back a few hours later, and bammm! the thread exploded. Clearly there are some very strong opinions here.

In my own experience of seeing a screenshot of diplo text for the first time, I too initially doubted whether it was within the rules and was frustrated by the effect the screenshot had on the course of the game. That said, none of the other players made an immediate issue of whether it was against the rules, so I assumed (probably the wrong decision since there is clearly a debate about it) that posting screenshots was an accepted practice and that I was just too much of a newbie to have experienced it before.

Regardless, I think there are two very distinct and legitimate questions here that should be separated.

1) Is it metagaming, as defined by the site rules, to use screenshots?
2) Even if it is not metagaming (therefore currently allowed within the rules), should screenshots (and more generally links) be allowed or banned going forward?

For the first question, I personally share Redhouse's interpretation of the rules and of course many other players disagree with that interpretation. We can argue about this all we want, but naturally the only interpretation of the rules that matters in the end is that of the mods/admins/owner. Based on Abdemacht's post, it seems like it has been ruled as not-metagaming. I disagree with this, but am not in a position to question that decision. That said, I think the rules as they are written are vague and clearly led to strongly divergent interpretations, so I would hope that they could be made more clear.

For the second question, I believe strongly that screenshots should not be allowed going forward (regardless of their use in the past), even if they are not metagaming. I agree with Redhouse that allowing screenshots moves this site in a direction that in my opinion is not desirable.

Before reading this thread I did not know how easy it was to forge a screenshot. I figured you had to use Photoshop. Because of the attention this has received, other players will now all know this and will suspect the authenticity of all screenshots they receive, just as they already do with cut/pasted text. But what then?

As others have noted, you could simply use a webcam and send a link to a video rather than a picture, which we all agree would be much harder and require much more advanced technical skill to forge. As long as you do this in a way that preserves anonymity during anonymous games, it seems that this would be a natural option within the current rules that players would inevitably pursue to try to find advantage in the game. I'm personally no good at technical stuff and wouldn't want to dedicate the time or effort to learning how to forge a picture, let alone a video. When I play Diplomacy, I want the result to be decided by my skill at diplomacy, strategy, and tactics, compared with the other players in the game. Just as Redhouse said earlier, I do not want my technical computer skills to be relevant to my success or failure.

All of that said, I absolutely respect the views of others in this thread that screenshots can be used as just another tool of deception, just like using audio-recording equipment in FtF. This is a game, and more relevantly a simulation of diplomacy and Great Power politics. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about what should be allowed or not allowed in that simulation provided that all playing understand and agree to it. If you are playing FtF and all agree that it is fine to use audio equipment, steal orders from the box when no one is looking to read/alter them, allow other players to submit orders on your behalf, etc. than that is fine as long as you're not breaking an actual law. The more things you allow, the more the simulation moves towards the real world of politics, diplomacy, etc, and this could legitimately enhance or detract from a particular players enjoyment of the game. Wanting to make your technical skills computer relevant to your success in the game is a valid viewpoint and certainly brings the simulation closer to reality. In my own opinion though, if I wanted the simulation of Diplomacy to be that close to the reality of diplomacy I'd just choose to focus my time on the real world stage rather than in the game.

From what I learned from previous posters, it is now clear to me that it is easy to forge a screenshot and that therefore this provides nothing beyond what is already provided by cutting and pasting. Allowing links to pictures however opens the door to allowing links to video. I believe we should just leave it at cutting and pasting and decide that opening the door to linking to pictures and video would only raise the relevance of technical computer skills and take this community in a direction we don't want to go.

Of course we all play on the same site and all need to play under the same rules (with some variations allowed under certain pre-approved contexts). As a community we should discuss this issue and then yield to the decisions of the mods/admins/owner. I am just one humble voice against allowing this to continue and snowball in what I think would be an undesirable direction.

http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/god/two.htm

"First, it is essential to know what goes on among the other players in their private lives - who knows whom, who is related to whom, who hates whose guts."

Tell us all how Richard Sharp is a meta-gamer, and how you play a purer form of the game than he does.

The interpretational issue has come up a lot. I must say, I don't see how one could interpret the current rule to make this illegal. It's been said plenty of times before, but the rule says "reasons outside the GAME," not "reasons outside the SITE." Big difference.

^ that was at redhouse for telling us what the game and the spirit of the game are about, Nerevatus, not you. (Just clarifying)

@Neveratus,
Well said. I greatly appreciate how you stated your opinions and how you frame others' opinions.

@redhouse,
Neveratus stated what your opinion pretty well and he did it in a civil manner.
And let's also look at his record: 75% win in 4 games.

I wonder if the two issues are related.

I read about the first two pages and then skipped to here...rh's rants were getting tiresome.

To but it in short, I don't see a difference between screenshots and copy-paste. Both are forgeable, and both don't mean shit unless the writing style corresponds to that of the other player. Everyone has their own writing style, and whenever I receive copy-pastes (which is a rare event in and of itself) I always cross-check it with the writing of the player in question. That said, I don't have a problem with copy-paste. Its a legitimate tool. So by extension, I'm okay with screenshots as well.

@zultar,
I think my more recent performance will soon show that any beginner's luck I had is running out.

@goldfinger,
I agree that this thread has shown that screenshots, like copy-paste are easily forgeable. If screenshots don't add anything new though, why not just draw a clear line and say copy-paste is fine, but no use of links. I think allowing links to screenshots just opens the door to allowing links to a photo you snap of your computer (with the diplo text on the screen shown, rather than an easily forgeable screenshot) and from there we just open the door to video. Would you support that as well? I personally do not and think it would be a very slippery slope (and a very difficult administrative burden) if we allowed the use of some links but not others.

@Nerevatus,
From the way you stated your opinions above, I am pretty sure that you are a good diplomat and that you will do very well. Maintaining a 75% win rate is pretty much impossible, but as you get into ranked games and you keep playing the way you do, a rare solo or a 3 way draw will shoot your ranking up quite a bit, at least past #303.
Oh wait, you've already done that with just four games. Man, your carnivore ranking must be dammmmmn high. :0

Carnivore rating. hehehe. Yet another of rothausfrau's contrarian efforts.

I feel personally that this practice should be against the rules, not because you can't fake a screenshot, but because you have to stop somewhere I guess.

Fake copy pastes are great and I've used and seen those used.

But a fake screenshot?

You have to ask yourself if anyone would actually do this. They probably wouldn't.

It would be like saying: "yeah you can be in a game with your brother and then show him your orders in person, it's nbd, because, you know, * technologically speaking, that can be faked."

I mean, maybe it can, but come on. I could also drug everyone I'm playing f2f with, or bribe people, I mean... I don't know. I will defer to the mods or majority opinion or kestas or whatever, but that's my own opinion.

Personally, I have no problem with the rule one way or the other. And Nerev is a smooth tongued devil who I hope never to meet in game cause he will convince me to just give him my centers. :-) I just have a problem with rothausfrau demanding that the rules, as writtne prohibit them because *he* doens't have the technical know how to do it at all, much less how it could easily be done completely without external links or anything. I could mae a video fo the screen or even record a training session and encode it and send it along as text in the tab of the recipient where he or she could copy and paste it into a decoder to watch. Technology does not a meta make. Now, if the mods want to rule this off limits, then by all means do so. No problem with that. But it isn't meta even then. It is just against the rules. Not all things meta are against the rules and not all things against the rules are meta. Hacking a person's account and changing their orders is against the site rules, but isn't meta by rothausfrau's definition as it is done strictly within the site.

I agree with Nerevatus that I dont think it's actually against the site's rules right now but should be.

And I should point out, I don't even use copy/paste as I find it personally to be tasteless. Yes, me, the guy they had to make a pause rule because of finds copy paste to be less than desirable and will not do it. But I also wouldn't trust a screen shot or even a video or photo to be absolute evidence. The image in the video could just as easily have been predoctored HTML before the video was shot.

@Draugnar,
I'd certainly enjoy meeting you in a game and promise to try my best to convince you to give me your centers :-)

As for your point about still not trusting even a video or photo as absolute evidence, I agree. Pretty much anything can be doctored. I think the key point though is whether it can be doctored by just about anyone or only those with advanced technical skill and whether we want to allow options that can only be taken advantage of by players with advanced technical skill.

We all know copy-paste is simple and now also all know how easy it is to doctor screenshots (I may be naive, but this was news to me today). I disagree though that it would be easy to doctor a photo or a video. Imagine if I took a video of myself typing in the Webdip url, logging in, opening the link to the game, and navigating to the press window that I wanted to share. This would be very difficult to doctor. I'd have to make a clone of the entire site, or do some serious video editing. As long as I later blacked out the portions that would give away my login info and identity to preserve anonymity, I don't see why posting a link to this video would be disallowed in the current rules. Unfortunately for me, while I have the skill to take a video and upload it, I don't know how to edit out my personal information and therefore couldn't use this option without violating the other rules, yet people with more skill could (and would have a very convincing demonstration that the message in question was authentic).

I think allowing links to screenshots simply puts us on this path and strongly believe this path is a bad one. If you believe that a screenshot provides nothing more than what we already get in copy-paste, how about we just limit ourselves to copy-paste and not go down the slippery slope of allowing links?

you clearly don't know the rules of F2F diplomacy.

This isn't cheating (according to them).

In one game Germany took a photo of Russia's orders with his phone and emailed the pic on top of an alliance offer to Austria.

Later in the game when Russia and Germany (now in an alliance) were talking, Germany snatched Russia's orders from the table, and after seeing that he was to be stabbed, he ripped them up.

While we did argue for sometime about the legitimacy of the second one, spying is perfectly allowed in diplomacy and so taking pictures was ruled ok.

Hey all,

So, first of all I'm drunk :-)

All I want to say is that Nerevatus very elegantly describes how I think about this matter, credits to him for writing such an elegant and truthful text.

Thucydides, please reread Nerevatus text because you seem to be "agreeing" with him on a point where you don't agree with him at all. :-)

@santosh, once again, I don't know what you want from me. First the byte by byte thing, and now an article that is related to an entirely different aspect of metagaming and - in my opinion - isn't even metagaming.

I'm not trying to lecture the webdip community on the difference between pure and impure diploming, or the difference between right and wrong, my opinion is very limited; I simply believe that the diploming that is done should be restricted to the framework that the site offers and that is simple, textual persuasion; given the fact that there is a very sensible rule, no. 2, on this issue that to makes a loooot of sense in the way I interpret it, as being a hard cut between what happens in a diplomacy and all the rest of the world, whether it be the rest of the internet, social relationships outside the game etc. that I believe is applicable to this particular form of Diplomacy.

Please, let's discuss this, and not my score, or anybody else's score, or how we're all rude to each other. Again, I'm a little drunk, but I'd be happy to discuss this all based on what Nerevatus said in his first post in this forum rather than the post I made at the beginning and the ones that followed it.

@Fasces:

"you clearly don't know the rules of F2F diplomacy.

This isn't cheating (according to them)."

These kinds of rules are very dependent on who's hosting it. I respect that people play this type of FtF game for example at your place. At my place there's different rules. The official rules of diplomacy don't mention cell phones and audio pens, they mention convoy paradoxes and the difference between the north and south coast of Spain, they don't regulate communication and were written in an era that there were no cell phones and audio pens.

I respect that other people organize games that allow for audio pens and cell phone use, I'm sure you'll respect the fact that these are not allowed when I organize FtFs at my place and I break that kind of equipment before telling the person that's the last time I invite him. The same room for different interpretation and preference on how to communicate should exist on this site, I respect anyone who has a different opinion than mine, even if I didn't show that respect.

I thought we were done after Neveratus's post, and from what has been said before and after his comments and the other threads, it's pretty clear that most people would rather discuss this with him than with you.
He basically said the same thing that you did except better and courteously. We were pretty much done discussing it. Why would we waste our time talking to you again?

zultar, why do you hate me so much?

If you don't want to discuss with me, don't discuss with me, why this hatred all the time? About my Carnivore rating, about my diplomacy, about my threads? If you hate me so much just mute me. This community is so nice, and it makes me so sad there's somebody here who wants to hurt me every time I put an idea here. Why is that?

Blimey redhouse are you popping uppers or what? I thought you won this argument about 12 hours ago? :P

zultar gives me the creeps too.

I'M DRUNK

sorry for caps. Am going to sleep now. Love to webdip community

lol

Okay it's true I didn't read his whole post. I tentatively retract my support lol.

"you clearly don't know the rules of F2F diplomacy.

This isn't cheating (according to them).

In one game Germany took a photo of Russia's orders with his phone and emailed the pic on top of an alliance offer to Austria.

Later in the game when Russia and Germany (now in an alliance) were talking, Germany snatched Russia's orders from the table, and after seeing that he was to be stabbed, he ripped them up.

While we did argue for sometime about the legitimacy of the second one, spying is perfectly allowed in diplomacy and so taking pictures was ruled ok."

This is different. I am a supporter of this kind of nefarious activity.

It just strikes me as different with the screencaps because of the technical barrier. Maybe I'm oldfashioned.

"This is different. I am a supporter of this kind of nefarious activity."
Well I (France in this game), couldn't stop laughing at Russia's reaction to Germany ripping up his orders, however in the end called that sort of play foul.