Yeah, so? This discussion is about America. Let Putin respond to my points.

"Wasn't there chattel slavery in Sumeria, Egypyt, Greece, Rome, the Muslim world, China, Japan, Kangaba, Songha, etc. etc. etc. since the beginning of civilization for thousands of years before the New World was ever founded? Wasn't the last place slavery ended in the New World was in Brazil in 1888."

And what is your point? Do you gush with admiration for all of those governments? Or even claim that the slavers were the brightest, best people the Earth has ever seen? Did all of those governments have the kind of race-based slavery we had in the United States? Did those forms of slavery lead to families being purposely broken up? Could the slaves gain freedom eventually?

The question is why do adore a government that wrote slavery into the damn constitution, made it race based, and didn't allow people to gain freedom. Or at least why you claim such a government is so superior to any other.

Gunfighter, I guess Putin decided he could respond to you.

The word slavery doesn't appear in the United States Consitution.

Since chattel slavery is a human insitution that has existed for thousands of years all over the globe that fact render the suggestion chattel slavery was created by the US Constitution moot. Race-based slavery in the Western Hemisphere began in the Portugese and Spanish New World colonies a century before the settlement of Jamestown, and two and a half centuries before the Constitution is written. In fact the United States Constitution ended slavery, an insitutiton began in the North American Atlantic Coast colonies by the English who adapted the Portugese and Spanish plantation systems, with the 13th amendment.

Ok I'm done listening to your lectures about the wonders of US Constitutional government when you make statements like "slavery doesn't appear in the Constitution".

That's completely disingenuous and you know it, if you're anything like the constitutional scholar you purport to be.

"Section. 9.

Clause 1: The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."

They *wrote the protection of slavery into the Constitution* and this is your glorious Constitutional government. You can prattle on about the "tyranny" of other government forms, but it took a war with 600,000 deaths and military occupation to eradicate race-based chattel slavery in the United States.

"Since chattel slavery is a human insitution that has existed for thousands of years all over the globe that fact render the suggestion chattel slavery was created by the US Constitution moot."

Race-based chattel slavery did not. And in fact few economies were so dependent on it as the American South. In most cultures there was a way for people to gain their freedom after a period of time. Indeed what is remarkable about Brazil and the Hispanophone countries is their racial intermingling. Somehow, someway they didn't resort to apartheid after the abolition of slavery.

Anyway the Spanish set up settlements of freed slaves who escaped British enslavement during the colonial period of North America, most notably in Florida. They were far less reliant on slave labor than the British, and used British intermediaries to import the slaves they did have.

@ Putin33

"The question is why do adore a government that wrote slavery into the damn constitution, made it race based, and didn't allow people to gain freedom."

All counties have baggage that they are not proud of. The institution of slavery was an abomination. No one is disputing that. What we are disputing is the fact that race-based slavery was considered acceptable when the Constitution was written. That does not make it okay, but it does mean that criticizing America's slaveholding past is a very cheap and indirect way to criticize America's system of government.

"Or at least why you claim such a government is so superior to any other."

No one here is making such a claim. We are arguing that federalism as it is practiced in America works very well for the type of country that we have. We are also arguing that American federalism is qualitatively as good as any other republican government. But if you are going to demonize federalism and America because our ancestors held slaves, maybe you should take a look at what some of your comrades did:

1) Mao: 49,000,000-78,000,000 dead
2) Stalin: 23,000,000 dead
7) Pol Pot: 1,700,000 dead
8) Kim Il-Sung 1,600,000 dead

Four out of the eight worst genocides in world history were caused by communist dictators. Mao and Stalin killed more people than in all other genocides combined.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

Silly Gunfighter....the United States CAUSED those deaths in those communist regimes! SERIOUSLY...to that moron Putin, ALL PROBLEMS ON THE PLANET EARTH are caused by the US.

He is THAT delusional...THAT full of bi-polar, psychopathic hatred.

If I were a local prosecutor....I'd probably have the guy locked up....because Putin is THAT FUCKED UP....

AND....let's be clear....A *****RAGING**** HYPOCRITE.


Ask Putin....the Capitalist hater....what he does for a living.

ASK PUTIN....the Capialist hater....how much time and money he give to the needy.

A more VILE specimen of greed you will not find, than the selfish tightwad Putin.

I'm actually more interested in his nationality. If he's an American, he ought to be locked up.

This coming from a cop. Pretty fucking frightening.

"1) Mao: 49,000,000-78,000,000 dead
2) Stalin: 23,000,000 dead
7) Pol Pot: 1,700,000 dead
8) Kim Il-Sung 1,600,000 dead"

What ass did you pull these numbers out of?

And did you bother to count the number killed by the US and its allies?

Didn't think so.

"That does not make it okay, but it does mean that criticizing America's slaveholding past is a very cheap and indirect way to criticize America's system of government. "

How is it any cheaper than your usual redbaiting bs you use whenever you want to criticize socialist countries? Your constitution you love so much defended the institution, made it impossible to change legally and peacefully. Federalism has been used to defend the worst kind of abuses, Jim Crow, more than anything else.

But why am I bothering to debate someone who thinks that I should be locked up while whining about 'tyrannical' communism.

Where the hell did your Kim Il Sung numbers come from, seriously? And why are you using Pol Pot, considering the US government backed him against the Soviets & Vietnamese?

It's amazing that a defender of a government that artificially divided another country, imposed brutal military rule on the South, and bombed every single population center to the stone age in North Korea, can have the *audacity* to complain about Kim Il Sung and the resistance to US imperialism.

That tells you how brainwashed most Americans are.

@ Putin33

"This coming from a cop. Pretty fucking frightening."

In my assessment, you are a security risk, possibly at a national level. That is assuming that you actually are the fervent communist that you portray yourself to be.
_________

I cited that source. Those numbers are as accurate as you can possibly expect. Once you kill over one million people, it becomes hard to keep track.


"And did you bother to count the number killed by the US and its allies?"

We've never gotten remotely close to killing that number of people throughout our history, starting with Jamestown. My point is that there is a very strong correlation between communism and batshit-crazy genocidal dictators.

"We've never gotten remotely close to killing that number of people throughout our history"

Are you mad? The Americans easily killed millions in the Korean and Vietnamese "police actions", mostly civilians. As I said, America dropped more napalm on Korea than the bombs they dropped on Japan in WWII. They annihilated everything that moved.

The US put into Suharto, who killed half a million-1 million people in two years alone. Two years.

"In my assessment, you are a security risk, possibly at a national level. That is assuming that you actually are the fervent communist that you portray yourself to be."

This is why most people hate cops. A bunch of thugs who want to lock up anybody who disagrees with their fascist views.

Remember kids, this is the same guy who provided security to the Gun Owners of America, a white supremacist gun nutter club.

With ties to the Militia movement, but I'm the security risk. Guffaw.

Putin is not making any sense here.

How not?

lol, if Zimmerman was wearing a red t-shirt Gunfighter would probably call him a communist was well.

You will deny all the well-documented data about Communist regimes doing massacres and then treat all data regarding the US committing atrocities as true.
That is just as bad as the capitalists you claim to hate except you are doing it from the opposite side.

Zimmerman is using the defacement of OSU's black cultural center as the image for his website fundraising money for his legal defense. I shit you not. He's advertising a hate crime to raise money.

What is well documented about that data? Did you go to that data? There was very little documentation other than "it's hard to estimate the death toll in secretive communist societies, so we're just going to write upwards of 70+ million because he feel like it".

Zimmerman is a racist murderer, that's what I feel. Shit happens in the US.

And is anyone denying Suharto killed half a million? Or the Americans killed several million in Vietnam & Korea? Nobody even denies this.

It's also very hard to estimate the death toll of Suharto or US-related casualties in Vietnam, so let's assume it is more significant than any Communist-related atrocity?

The US ain't a saint, but neither are the Communists. Don't be naive.