'but why should we believe the Bible? Because the Bible says so? Really?' there are other books... hmm, what does the qua-ran say about jesus?

@dexter

He didn't call anyone a fag, which is about all we can hope for from maple.

@dexter: perhaps Jesus visited other people before the disciples? In fact I think it says that in Mark or one of the other Gospels. I'm gonna check right now.

You know, one day I wanted to decide where I should travel to. I had heard there were a lot of places, but I my parents only had a travel guide to Bermuda. I read that one and fell in love with Bermuda. I recognize there are other places to travel, but my travel guide says Bermuda is the best. I've heard there are travel guides that talk about places other than Bermuda, but I don't bother to read them, because my travel guide says Bermuda is the best.

@CM, I'll be interested in what you find. Being witnessed by a crowd of 500 is a pretty big deal - and I would expect, were that something that actually happened, I would think that it would be recorded in all four gospels at the barest minimum. If it is in one or two (or none) that would certainly suggest that it was added on later (stories tend to get better with time)... and if it's only in Corinthians and other writings of Paul's, then presumably Paul came up with it.

CM: Near as I can tell from sources from the Roman Empire, there is little contemporary evidence about Jesus. Suetonius, Pliny and Tacitus make reference to Christians, but this is many years after the fact, and they are dealing with Christianity as a new religious movement in the Empire. (On average ~100 years later)

The Dead Sea scrolls contain many interesting passages that could be contemporary, but I'll be the first to say that I've got no more than a extremely passing familiarity with them.

And yes. I doubt if your youth pastor gave you all the relevant data, because in my admittedly biased opinion, the evidence simply does not support the rather fantastic claims being made. (Try to remove yourself from your personal upbringing and consider what you would think if this was being explained to you today if you knew nothing of that particular religion... absolute objectivity in history is unfortunately impossible, but it is a goal that should be followed as rigorously as possible.)

@abge: First off, a lot of Christian scholars have read the other 'travel guides'. Second off, those Christian scholars generally determine that the travel gulde to Bermuda is logically the best one.

@dexter: I read the Bible. While it doesn't specifically say in the Gospels whether Jesus appeared to hundreds of people, but it doesn't say that he went immediately to his disciple. So there was a lot of time where he could have visited other people.

Now, I am officially taking a break from this argument for about 5 hours. I need time to de-stress, because this is really stressing me out.

@CM

Have you?

First off, a lot of Islamic scholars have read the other 'travel guides'. Second off, those Islamic scholars generally determine that the travel gulde to Tahiti is logically the best one.

There. Fixed it. (I imagine you reacting: "*of course* the Islamic scholars would disagree, *they* are biased!")

@Cm, I'm back :). That was just an ignorant response. Of *course* the Christian scholars think the Christian travel guide is logically the best! You can't be so dense as to think that because some Christian Scholars said Christianity is the most logical that it *is* the most logical...

ps how come women cant be priests.

explain that to me on a moral basis other than your texts

@Thucy: That's a catholic thing. I don't agree with it.
@everyone: Well, the problem is, EVERYONE is biased. Christians are biased, Muslims are biased, atheists are biased. That's why I probably shoudln't have started this thread in the first place. Honestly I'm surprised anyone has ever converted religions, but apparently it happens.

Obviously everyone is biased. But there's a difference between "I see no evidence for it, it is not logical" and "I have grown up with this religion, it is logically the best". Now, which seems *less* biased, and the *most* objective?

Anyway, because of the fact that no one is gonna change their minds and everyone is biased, and because this thread is stressing me out a lot(tons of hair falling out in the shower), I call for this thread to end. let's just let it die.

Are you serious about hair falling out?

Don't cop out of this CM, that's lame.

"You know, one day I wanted to decide where I should travel to. I had heard there were a lot of places, but I my parents only had a travel guide to Bermuda. I read that one and fell in love with Bermuda. I recognize there are other places to travel, but my travel guide says Bermuda is the best. I've heard there are travel guides that talk about places other than Bermuda, but I don't bother to read them, because my travel guide says Bermuda is the best. "

lulz. Abge +1.

"First off, a lot of Christian scholars have read the other 'travel guides'. Second off, those Christian scholars generally determine that the travel gulde to Bermuda is logically the best one."

What do the Muslim scholars say? Theirs sucks?

"@dexter: I read the Bible."

Just curious, what was your favorite part? Stoning the adulterers or the gays?

@Kingdroid: I am serious. I was scrubbing my hair, I looked at my hands, saw a ton of hair, and was like wtf?

I know that starting to question and apply critical thinking to your upbringing can be stressful.

But I take exception to being lumped in with the superstitious... for this reason: My world view is based on science. If new data comes along which contradicts previously held notions, this new data is tested and evaluated. If the new data makes more sense than the old data, we adapt the prevailing theories to take this into account.

On the other hand, (Abrahamic)religions state that if observations contradict the holy writings, the holy writings are right, and objective reality is wrong. And that, sir, I simply cannot accept.

My world view not only takes into account that our ideas and data changes, but advocates the same in order to better understand the world around us.

"I know that starting to question and apply critical thinking to your upbringing can be stressful."

Everything you said +1. But especially that.

Maybe, CM, you shouldn't try to provide evidence where there is none. I imagine trying hard to make things up and then getting proven wrong over and over again *would* be stressful.

Damnit Jack, you beat me to what I wanted to say, and said it better to boot!

+1

"I know that starting to question and apply critical thinking to your upbringing can be stressful."
Yes, though there is no way I'm ever going to deny God's existence. I'm just not. And really, what should you care? It doesn't affect you. And anyway, scholars of every belief system have questioned and apllied critical thinking to their beliefs, and they usually keep their beliefs the same (though not always; C.S. Lewis being one of the more famous examples). This is because people are biased, which we have already established. Now obviously I agree with the Christian Scolars, though I of course admit that I could be wrong. But I find if hard to believe that Christianity being right is a completely illogical stance, mainly because I don't think anybody is biased enough to accempt COMPLETELY false logic when evaluating their belief system. I think every belief system, from Christianity to atheism, uses some false logic, because we don't know enough about our universe to find a perfect logical answer to everything. Except perhaps pure agnosticism, which just says 'we don't know'. But I prefer to make a hypothesis, and believe and have faith in something, rather than to say 'we don't know'. But it is still a valid viewpoint. And I do agree that we don't know anything for sure.

292 replies so far. I'm SURE that someone has something new to say....<rolls eyes> God, if only I had read past post 291 my whole life might have been changed....

Oh, and when I said, "But I find if hard to believe that Christianity being right is a completely illogical stance" I was in no was implying that other belief systems are completely illogical, and only Christianity isn't. Because that isn't true. Anyway, I think it's time for this thread to die.

*I was in no way implying*

"And really, what should you care"

Well, you're spewing drivel on a forum I read... so... there's that. As a humanist and utilitarian, I believe everyone would be better off without religion or religious influence... so... there's that. Other Christian's (not necessarily you) have managed to get intelligent design put into the curriculum in our elementary schools in my state... so... there's that.

I could go on, but I think I make my point clear.

"Well, you're spewing drivel on a forum I read... so... there's that" So voicing my opinions is spewing drivel? I think this statement is spewing drivel: "As a humanist and utilitarian, I believe everyone would be better off without religion or religious influence" but since it's your opinion, I don't care that you made it.

There must be a God, or some other divine or cosmic force. How did the universe get started, after all?

It "got started" spontaneously, like nuclear decay.