"I again said that they made an offer in 2000 - I didn't say it was a fair one."

You previously said Arafat was to blame for failing to reach an agreement in 2000.

So, you're basically saying that it was all Arafat's fault, because he should have accepted an unfair offer made in bad faith by a bullying Israel?

Fuck off.

"Politics IS unfair...and yet, in the midst of that unfairness, MLK and Gandhi still did it."

Neither of them followed your advice of just accepting that the stronger power can dictate the terms, so just accept whatever crappy deal they offer like the one Israel offered in 2000. Gandhi was very radical, and rejected compromise at all times. MLK wasn't content with the crappy deals of 1957 or 1960 either.

You aren't calling for the Palestinians to resist, you're calling for them to capitulate. The 2000 deal was capitulation.

Stop pretending like you'd actually support the Palestinians demands if they engage in civil disobedience. Palestinians engage in non-violent protests in the West Bank, their reward is getting shot. I suppose that's Hamas's fault somehow too.

It takes some insane arrogance and cognitive dissonance to not only say what form of anger and expression the Palestinians are allowed to have (non-violent protest) while also stating that the results of that protest will always favor Israel because it has 'leverage'. Once again, obi sets up a no-win situation for Palestinians. Just take it and shut up.

He also never did offer his sources for the three UN schools with rockets, 5 pages later.

Every action Obi envisions Palestine taking to ensure peace with israel has already been done and sabotaged by Israel itself. Non-violent protest, formation of a new government w/ recognition of Israel, all of it has made no progress because Israel does not want there to be progress.

@obiwanobiwan

"It's not an excuse for Israel, it's the practical truth--it DOES have all the leverage, and that won't change, so Israel gets to dictate those terms."

Are you arguing for a moral outcome and "might makes right" at the same time?

Until yesterday I didn't know that the plan of reducing Hamas's support by pounding Gaza had actually *worked* in the past.

That means that Israel has an *incentive* to not be particularly precise in it's targeting. I.e. if an attack is off-target and results in damage to civilian areas, it actually has a positive side-effect, from the perspective of eroding Hamas's support.

Even in the absence of deliberate targeting of civilian areas, I have to wonder if that incentive could be affecting peoples judgment in how aggressively they go after difficult targets.

Throwing rocks is not non-violent protest.

In addition to murdering innocent women and children, the genocidal israelis have been stealing property, particularly the money and gold they covet so pathetically and predictably, from Palestinian homes.

My heroes. Oh how righteous....

I'd like to say a big thank you and well done to people who have not got Obi muted ..... you've been very brave to soak up that shit that spews from his keyboard :-)

I wonder what might happen if a crowd of, say, three hundred Palestinian youths, clearly unarmed, marched onto a major thoroughfare or near an Israeli checkpoint, sat down and refused to move when told to do so, steadfastly remaining committed to not responding violently to whatever came at them. I don't know if that sort of committed, frankly self-sacrificial non-violent protest has been tried, but I wonder how it would go down and be covered.

This is what happens (I'm not sure about the youth content, though):

"In 2010, A "White Intifada" took hold in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Weekly protests by Peaceful Palestinian activities accompanied by B'Tselem ( the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories) in addition to Israel academics and students against settlers and security forces. The EU through its foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton has criticised Israel for convicting an organiser of the peaceful movement and said that she was deeply concerned about the arrest of Abdullah Abu Rahmeh. There have been two fatalities among protesters and an American peace activist suffered brain damage after being hit by a tear gas canister."

Summary: arrested/killed/gassed.

@ FineRedMist: In the current climate, I predict that they would be shot before they had the chance to sit down.

"Throwing rocks is not non-violent protest."

But non-violent protests are.

@FineRedMist's your fantasy isn't really relevant to anything.

Umm, OK. It was a discussion that included talk about non-violent resistance. Why the hostility, bro?

@FineRedMist Sorry if that came across as hostile, but it's "The latest from Gaza" thread, not an alternate-reality thread.

Non-violent protests happen all the time near Israeli checkpoints. Often on land that has recently been claimed by Israeli settlers, and often with some international observers. Despite the non-violent intent, they often end anyway in violence, arrests, and even deaths. The best case scenario is being ignored really.

http://news.yahoo.com/gaza-rockets-fired-israel-hamas-truce-expires-060339201.html

And we're back... *sigh*

What, did you actually think it would last?

https://screen.yahoo.com/hamas-rejects-disarmament-proposal-180744900.html

No, I didn't...but still, that would've been nice, or an extension, at least.

Yeah well Israel won't end the blockade, so their slaughter of children continues.

Well, actually, Israel AND Egypt won't end the blockade, because they both have a mutual distrust of a terrorist organization.

But, as we've established, you don't give a damn when it's Jews being threatened by such an organization...OR Anti-Semites abroad...

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/The-anti-Semitism-sweeping-Europe-370058

"n France, the epicenter of this new-wave anti-Semitism, protesters in Paris attempted to storm two synagogues and succeeded in trapping 200 Jews in a third. In Sarcelles, smoke bombs preceded the vandalizing of a kosher grocery and pharmacy. In Barbès, stone-throwing teenagers burned Israeli flags and unfurled a banner that read, “Israhell.”

Over the past month, eight synagogues in France have been targeted. In Toulouse, the scene where, in 2012, an Islamist murdered a teacher and three children at a Jewish school, two firebombs were hurled at a Jewish community center.

In Germany, arsonists threw firebombs at a synagogue in Wuppertal. An imam in Berlin called on Allah to smite all “Zionist Jews,” and an Orthodox Jewish teenager was assaulted.

When in Rome it’s best not to do what Italy’s neo-Nazis are doing – spray-painting swastikas and anti-Semitic graffiti on Jewish-owned businesses. Four people were murdered at the Jewish Museum in Brussels.

Norway’s Jewish museum is closed due to security concerns.

Thousands of demonstrators, purportedly in solidarity with Gaza’s victims, have protested in England, Vienna and Amsterdam – yet much of the rage is directed at Jews, and not specifically Israelis. England is reporting a 50 percent increase in anti-Semitic acts with 100 hate crimes occurring in July alone."

But you're right...Jews worldwide?

Yeah, they're not suffering or being targeted AT ALL.

Give it up, you bigot. (You won't, but still, it's fun to play along sometimes...tell me, do you watch news clips of all of this with a little Ride of the Valkyries blaring in the background? For a guy who purportedly hates fascist, you sure love their music of choice...AND the suffering of their favorite target of choice...)

And as Israel withdrew its ground troops, in a show of DE-escalation, and Hamas fired anyway, I'm curious to see what new and cute justification for your backing bloodthirsty terrorists you come up next.

It's like an old Cosby show, Putin-i-fied...

"Antisemites Say the Darndest Things!"

Since have you cared about neo-Nazis? They massacre people in Ukraine and you support them. Because they're killing Russians.

So long as they kill races you hate you support Nazis.

I'm the bigot when you defend the murder of children in Gaza. I'm the bigot when you think 2000 Palestinian civilians and 6 billion of damage is an acceptable price to pay for low level rocket fire in response to the rampage through the West Bank after Israel lied about the kidnapping of 3 teens. I'm the bigot when you continue to defend the bombing of schools, hospitals, power plants, farms, etc. I'm the bigot when you insist Palestinians engage in non-violence while defending Israeli violence. I'm the bigot when you continue to make all kinds of special exemptions for Jews while not giving a damn about the lives of Arabs.

Well spoken, Putin.

Obi, Israel deliberately walked into Hamas's trap when it started mass bombing. It knew when it did that, that Jews in other countries would be targeted. But that's a sacrifice they were willing to make.

With regards to international public opinion, Hamas was playing chess, Israel was playing checkers.

The hard road would have been to work with the Palestinians to get rid of Hamas. That's the way to peace. Instead they are now talking about "mowing the lawn" - bombing Palestine every few years to keep it suppressed. Israel only knows the banhammer. It will only negotiate if the other side disarms before negotiations start, giving nothing to negotiate with. That's what they did with the PLO and that's what they are doing now.

Yes, Hamas is way worse than Israel and well deserves to be destroyed. But Israel is doing everything possible to make sure than something like Hamas will always exist. Until Israel changes its strategy, this same conversion will repeated every few years.

You can go into the details of how Hamas tried peace and it didn't work, and then Israel did and Hamas didn't cooperate, a regular Hatfield and McCoys tit for tat, but the bigger picture is that, until Palestine has a fat lazy middle class, this won't end.

"I'm the bigot when you defend the murder of children in Gaza. I'm the bigot when you think 2000 Palestinian civilians and 6 billion of damage is an acceptable price to pay for low level rocket fire in response to the rampage through the West Bank after Israel lied about the kidnapping of 3 teens. I'm the bigot when you continue to defend the bombing of schools, hospitals, power plants, farms, etc. I'm the bigot when you insist Palestinians engage in non-violence while defending Israeli violence. I'm the bigot when you continue to make all kinds of special exemptions for Jews while not giving a damn about the lives of Arabs. "

He's the bigot when you defend the murder of children in *Syria*. He's the bigot when you think 100,000 *Syrian* civilians and *I don't even have this fucking number* of damage is an acceptable price to pay for *democratic society* in response to *Peaceful Protests*. He's the bigot when you continue to defend the bombing of schools, hospitals, power plants, farms, etc. He's the bigot when you insist *Syrians* *engaging* in non-violence *are violent* while defending violence *Used by Assad's Regime*. *He's* the bigot when you continue to make all kinds of special exemptions for *Your Political crushes* while not giving a damn about the lives of Arabs.

Honestly, what the fuck.