"Nigee is not funny."

I think you have to be sensitive with gays too, but I don't think you should teach it to 12 y olds in a primary school...

Gayness and gay sensitivity were part of regular health education at my public schools at all levels. I don't think that there's anything weird about it.

If you learn it throughout your schooling, that's exactly the effect it should have, ghug.

the point, redhouse, is that if kids are taught to be respectful of other sexual orientations BEFORE they become aware of them, then they will be less likely to "stomp a faggot," when they do become aware.

Why is this disturbing? 12 is the perfect age... every 12 year old idiot young male I know walks around saying, "that's so gay" and doesn't ever realize how offensive that is. I absolutely did it too.

It can definitely propagate into later life.

I knew I was straight ever since I can remember but isn't 12 a little young to speak out on your sexual orientation with definitiveness? I don't think you're gonna have a fun time ever that in some circles if you openly admit to being gay at that time. Rather, these instructors should encourage children to take up these matters with their parents than with their peers. Just sayin'.

YJ I'm not sure if I disagree with that. Violence and ganging up on people is a bad thing per se, it has little to do with the sexual orientation of other people. I'll be very careful to instruct my future children (if any) that they shouldn't initiate violence. I don't see how gay sensitivity has anything to do with keeping your paws off other people.

*agree with that. Getting tired. Meh.

Nothing says parents shouldn't be involved. But as schools play a fundamental part in the education and formation of a nation's citizens, it makes tons of sense that some of the nation's values (political liberalism, for example, that is, the view that your liberty is only limited by the liberties of others) are taught in schools as well.

and I'm just sayin' you are both wrong, and you misunderstand the sensitivity training.

Nobody's asking kids to "come out" at 12. They're teaching them about respect, a bit of social engineering, same as they do about sexism and racism. They're equipping kids so that if at the age of 16 (or whenever) they DO come out they are better prepared, and the straight kids are better prepared to not be a giant asshole about it.

I won't accept that it's "between the parents and child." Parents who propagate bigotry based on sexual orientation are scum, and if these classes can help give a potential bully another perspective that's absolutely a good thing.

What does it mean to "propagate bigotry based on sexual orientation" as a parent?

@red OK, I do believe you, but I think you are coming from a place of ignorance.

anti-gay violence is REALLY common in America - especially in high school. It has EVERYTHING to do with sexual orientation. Yes, you can say "never be violent," but that's only half the problem. It's also important to make sure kids understand the differences between gays and straights (effectively NOTHING) so they won't feel the need to attack gays in particular.

Again, it really is a huge problem, and absolutely specific to gays in particular (though, of course, not exclusively).

MKECharlie it means teaching your kids, through direct action, that gays are inferior. That's the "scum" type.

There's also (much more prevalent) the parents who just don't correct their kids when they hear what Johnny has picked up. I wouldn't call them scum - I've never been much of the mind with the "if you aren't part of the solution you're part of the problem" crowd. They aren't helping - period. But that's exactly why its a good thing that the school system is taking a step in the right direction.

Umm...you never been to Nebraska have you? Gays, African-Americans, Liberals, the poor are all popular targets in our schools.

If you'll forgive me pressing you on the point, can you give me an example of what you mean by "teaching your kids, through direct action, that gays are inferior?"

They were actually encouraging the kids to say that they were gay if they were, but never mind. I think it's bizarre for a 12 y old to say he's straight in front of his peers as well, for the record.
Also, for the record, this was a sensitivity class in the beautiful Dutch province of Noord Brabant and I'm not aware of a lot of violence against gay people going on down there.
Anyways I think it could be more interesting for one of these parent-teacher talks to bring up the matter of gay sensitivity and for them to discuss it with their kids than to do so directly.
Anyways, this is all up for discussion, haven't really made up my mind. But violence is bad, mmkay?

I question people who come out at an early age. I may have decided that I liked girls at a very early age, but teen hormones are teen hormones. Is it possible that someone could have homosexual feelings as a teenager and "grow out of it"? I mean, we all know of guys who were just bad at getting girls and hooked up with each other. Doesn't mean that they were gay, means that they were desperate to the point of doing gay things.

I know it sounds horrible to say "grow out of it", but I feel like that being encouraged to come out (or even coming out) before full mental maturity is a mistake. Is it too much to ask to stay in the closet, until, say, 20?

Shit what if you're a poor liberal gay African-American in Nebraska? That doesn't sound like a fun place at all.

using "gay" as a pejorative in conversation is probably the most common example, MKE. I know two particular very educated fathers who do it regularly, and that's just off the top of my head.

"grow out of it"

No. It doesn't happen. You may be shamed out of admitting it, but if you ever thought of cock with desire, you always will in your heart of hearts.

Also, isn't it a bit of a double standard to ask young gays to stay closeted until the age of 20? Doesn't that much make it that much more of a private and shameful thing while they are young? Better to get it out into the open and be acceptive of it BEFORE society teaches the the horrible things it will teach them in the absence of our foresight.

Hmmm, I don't think our hypothetical African-American student would have a very good time, no. The safest way to get through schools in Nebraska is be White or Asian (or in my case half White-Asian), be Protestant, vote Republican, and listen to country. I assume it's the sameacross the Midwest, I know Kanass is the same.

There is no growing out of sexuality... it happens as it happens. It obviously takes a lot more personal thought than people once thought it did, so I guess it's potentially possible, but it's not something to depend on and it's not something that you can send a kid to an ultra-conservative Bible preaching camp and expect them to come home straight.

@YJ: Getting people to stop using "gay" as a pejorative doesn't seem like much to ask. I thought you were going to go much further than that.

@Yellowjacket

Thinking of cocks with desire? Is that how it works with gay people? By the age of ten (possibly 9) I'd discovered the female lingerie section of the catalogue, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't thinking of vaginas. It was much more an attraction to the female body as a whole.

There are not many places on Earth full of people gay for poor liberal African-American gays anyways, though.

Also, 12 too young? You should know what works for your fapping routine by that age.

MKEcharlie, no I don't think there are many parents who deliberately train their children to hate gays. WBC maybe :)

Octavious, yes, that's much better.

@ yj

Better? What are you on about? Can't people be curious anymore?

no I mean your description of what is "attractive" at 12 is likely much more true to reality than mine was.

And then a very interesting side conversation started between YJ and Octavious that will certainly prompt me to check webdip.net as one of the first websites tomorrow morning. Gotta go sleep now guys, cheers.