http://memegenerator.net/instance/13668892?urlName=Joseph-Ducreux&browsingOrder=Popular&browsingTimeSpan=Week

One man's utopian state is another's dystopian nightmare.

A world state has nothing to do with socialism, utopian or otherwise.

Socialism is impossible without a lack of choice, and if there is one thing all men have...it's a choice to do whatever they want to matter the consequences.

Socialism is the greatest form of government imaginable...in theory. In actuality, it is a failure of society.

That's communism, socialism often works fine.

How is it a failure in society?

It is a failure that society feels the need to portray as legitimate and perfect.
It is a failure....and it is bred from societal needs and wants to do other failed forms of Government.

You still haven't explained how it is a failure.

economic calculation problem

I don't believe in utopia, we don't talk about a capitalist utopia so why should socialism be a utopia. Whatever social or economic system you have there will still be greedy and jealous people who will seek to take what is not theirs. The difference being in our current socio-economic system (based around money/religion/war) we applaud these people. We think that Goldman Sachs are great bankers, that people we hire to invade countries and kill the innocent are heroes and that somehow if God were about he would back us all the way ......... if this is where we are starting from we need to make some very fundamental adjustments to our way of thinking. Replace the word economic growth with economic sustainability, take the gun out of the soldiers hands and give him food and medicines, replace capitalism with collectivism, replace men in the boardrooms of corporate giants and govt agencies with women, replace oil with alternative energy sources, rather than looking to God for your salvation talk to your friends/neighbours/work colleagues/enemies. Unless we are ready to made these adjustments we are sending the Earth and its peoples to environmental oblivion, then what will a big house, a flash car, cheap Chinese imports, an I-pad and stocks and shares do for you then. Only the serious threat of extinction of the human race will bring about a new world order but by the time that penny drops it will probably be too late.
So rather than talk of pie-in-the-sky ideas like a socialist utopia stop supporting the haters and the greedy and the war mongers who will destroy this planet. We plan every thing else in our lives so what is so bad about a planned economy, capitalism is wasteful, inefficient, destructive and rewards greed and not hard work. A meritocratic system rewards people for hard work.
If you read this and disagree then you are not ready for change, maybe your children or your childrens children will bring about the change we need in the world; one thing's for sure, if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Don't change the world, change yourself.

Dumpster diving friend took 'waste' food yesterday from a supermarket to the occupy protesters. Such a pity capitalism doesn't control the waste using some kind of perfect pricing mechanism to match supply with demand.

However the point is that overarch hiearchies lead to inefficiencies, as much in big businesses as in governments, any global govt. Would fall prey to this problem on a massive scale.

Local government needs to be the basic instrument of governance, with structures above that used to provide support not dictate or operate any top-down power model.

@ NigeeBaby: Good post! +1

(I would just have clicked the '+1' button but I wanted it to be clear that I personally +1-ed it, which is a feature you only get by posting "+1")

@ orthaic: "However the point is that overarch hiearchies lead to inefficiencies, as much in big businesses as in governments, any global govt. Would fall prey to this problem on a massive scale."

While I'm not persuaded that a world government is possible yet, I would have to ask, on the basis of your analysis, how do large companies prosper?

Certainly in some cases big = unwieldy and difficult to manage, it can also be the case that big = economies of scale. Large organisations can be complex to manage, but if managed correctly they can achieve considerable efficiency.

Jamie
Not too sure what the +1 means but it sounds like a good thing so that's a big :-) from me
cheers
Nige

+1 means "Me too" or "hear, hear". It means I am pleased you posted what you did, and am generally supportive.

I find categorical arguments for bigger or smaller to be unconvincing. Bigger/smaller government, more/less taxes, more/less social spending, etc. World government could mean anything... and socialism is too vague. Any social enterprise involves some limitation of personal liberty as a tradeoff for common good and thus individual good (and indeed even increased liberty - such as the liberty to go across the U.S. quickly was given by the social enterprise of government supported transcontinental rail). Sometimes such bargains are good, sometimes bad... and opinions vary. Beyond that, yes, utopia is by definition a good idea... :-) But that doesn't mean it readily translates into reality. Dystopia as well.

Towards the future we progress - in fits and starts and eventually we improve things. I do think that particularly with increased world population that we inexorably move more towards world integration (U.N., World Court, World Bank, etc.)... and it is up to all of us to help make such changes be positive rather than negative.

There should be a standing ovation button.

A Utopia?

Never will happen, there will always be problems (that being said, there's something to be said for aiming high and landing slightly lower...there's no harm at all in wanting to create an As-Good-As-Humanly-Possible-topia.)

Socialism?

I don't feel it works, or communism...at best, they're fatally flawed fool's paradises, at worst, a system susceptible to corruption--see: "Animal Farm," an absolute masterpiece of fiction, and the perfect counterpoint to how the communal paradise is doomed to failure--as well as encouraging a sense of mediocrity.

A World State?

At some point in the future, I think it's inevitable, as we grow more and more globalized...but I'm not sure if it will occur in my lifetime, we're so divided...as to whether or not it would be good?

At the beginning...possibly not...in the end, assuming we survive that long, however, I think it could prove to be a beautiful thing...but then, this is me speculating 200 years down the road--and I'd never have guessed in 1812 that man would one day walk on the moon, build weapons with more destructive power than the sun, murder millions upon millions of its own kind in concentrated horrors untold, and invent the devices necessary for the Internet.

So, in 200 years...who knows.

""Animal Farm," an absolute masterpiece of fiction"

If you like cheap plagiarized literature.

Seriously I can't believe a Shakespeare fan likes Orwell shit.

"I don't feel it works"

Anyone who seriously advocates for a Platonic Republic and criticizes other systems for not "working" and being a "fool's paradise" has no sense of comedy.

http://rksmb.org/get.php?2605

"economic calculation problem"

Seemed to manage to calculate well enough to defeat and outproduce the German war machine just fine. Meanwhile, how is capitalism doing calculating those mortgage-backed securities?

Calculated so well, in fact, that we still see all the surpluses being sold to everyone all around the world. That was kinda the point.

And yes, I would argue that socialism is as equally deplorable an economic system as the fascism of 1930s/40s Germany and as the fascism of 2000s/10s America. I would not, however, argue that the fascism of 2000s/10s America is the capitalism that advocates of free-market capitalism call for.

Here we go...

"If you like cheap plagiarized literature."

1. "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal" --T.S. Eliot

I'm with my favorite poet of all-time (besting even Shakes and Milton for me in taste here)

2. ...Alright, Putin, you made the charge...back it up...*sigh*

"Seriously I can't believe a Shakespeare fan likes Orwell shit."

...Why?

Orwell was a Shakespeare fan, quotes Shakespeare in his work alludes to Shakespeare, laments in "1984" that Newspeak will destroy many great authors, listing Shakespeare among them...friend and contemporary Aldous Huxley liked Shakespeare, entitling "Brave New World" after what may be the most famous quote from Shakespeare's last solo play, "The Tempest"...

Why wouldn't I like Orwell as a Shakespeare fan?

Orwell's a fantastic author; if I weren't such a great fan of D.H. Lawrence and Virginia Woolf, I might even be compelled to call Orwell my favorite novelist of the last century...and even then, not only is it close--

I think "1984" is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT NOVEL of the last century; only Joyce's "Ulysses," really rivals it, and there it comes down to style vs. substance, with no intended knock at Joyce; "1984" has the most profound message and thematic impact on novels in the last century, "Ulysses" has the largest stylistic impact.

So...again...

Why WOULDN'T I like Orwell, as a Shakespeare fan?

"Anyone who seriously advocates for a Platonic Republic and criticizes other systems for not "working" and being a "fool's paradise" has no sense of comedy."

1. Maybe this explains why you think I, as a Shakes fan, would hate Orwell--you're apparently horrendous with reading comprehension. I've stated MULTIPLE TIMES that I ONLY think Plato's theories on why we form a state, specialization, and education are good...

I DO NOT ADVOCATE FOR PLATO'S REPUBLIC, OR PHILOSOPHER KINGS.

So...yeah...next?

" America is the capitalism that advocates of free-market capitalism call for."

Of course you wouldn't, because that would mean you market ideologues would actually be held to account for your beliefs. Instead you have to posit a market world that doesn't exist and never has existed, that's how "well" it works.

"I would argue that socialism is as equally deplorable an economic system as the fascism of 1930s/40s Germany"

Fascism wasn't a unique economic system. Germany was a market economy in the 1930s complete with wage and labor suppression.

"Calculated so well, in fact, that we still see all the surpluses being sold to everyone all around the world. That was kinda the point."

And why, if capitalism calculates so well, did they have a problem with mispriced assets in the first place? Oh right, "government" caused it, blah blah blah. Because government somehow told investors of MSGs to continue buying them at record pace and told investment banks to overleverage, and everything else.

But see you have a perfect argument, able to trot out present-day capitalism when it suits your argument and then slam it for not being capitalism when its flaws are pointed out.

*MBSs...

"Alright, Putin, you made the charge...back it up...*sigh*"

I provided you that link. Here's another, for the "most important" (crappily written) books of all time.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2009/jun/08/george-orwell-1984-zamyatin-we

"Why?"

Because Orwell is a thief and a bad writer, and Shakespeare is hailed as the best writing in English. Orwell is a disgrace and an insult to writers everywhere. But because 1984 is anti-communist everybody forgives "Blair" for being a horrendous plagiarist snitch bigot.