Why is this the last real one?

Well, I am a Reds fan so the Cards are the archenemy, but hey I am proud of them anyway!

Because they are going to destroy the sovereignty of the two circuits by having constant inter-league play. It's a major step towards completely dissolving the meaningfulness of the National and American Leagues. I wouldn't be surprised if they move to standardize the rules soon, probably by imposing the DH on the National League.

I doubt it, Putin...I haven't heard about "constant" interleague play...

Come on--just enjoy the night and don't be negative...if I can do it, so can you. ;)

GREAT win by the cards, you're right...I've been pissed at them since they broke my Mets-fan-heart in 2006, but this run makes up for that somewhat, just incredible gutsy, gutsy teamwork and team-play...

Sort of the anti-Yankees, anti-Phillies feel to it, THERE it's a bought championship, just buy the most stars and you win.

There were so many non-stars and role players and just common players here that were heroes...

And one of them just got a new Corvette! GO FREESE! :D

Hopefully Tony and Albert both stay in St. Louis, that's where they belong...but for now, great end to a pretty good year of baseball all around.

(And now, for 2012...let's top it with an Amazing Mets comeback year!) ;)

I would say the last real one was before inter league play came around. I say get rid of it. You want meaningful rivalries, make it so national league teams play more. This of course wont happen because a handful of games (and only a handful) make alot of money..

I heard about it earlier in the season, arn't they switching a team from national to American league which necessitates it?

yup stros move to AL West, two 15 team leagues necessitate season long scheduling of inter league games

The Astros are being bribed to move to the AL West. So it might be delayed until 2013 because the schedules have already been released, but who knows. They could always revise them. But by 2013 at the least we're going to have this bogus realigned league in which because each league will have 15 teams they'll have to constantly have inter-league play. They also want to expand the playoffs, which in the face of this season's awesome last minute playoff berths is just stupid.

Sorry beat me to it.

I think the realignment is necessary, the fact that there is a 4 team division and the 6 team division is just unfair. I am, however, opposed to inter league play, and agree the realignment will have negative effects in that regard

What they need to do is eliminate the Marlins and Rays. Nobody shows up to their games even if they win. The Rays were ranked 29th in attendance despite their great playoff run.

I know there's been talk of the Astros moving to the AL West...but I can't quite see it...

That'd put BOTH Texas teams in the AL, thus giving a whole, huge market, a Texas-sized market, if you will, ONLY AL-ball to care about...

Not good for business.

That said...I suppose if the Brew Crew can switch leagues, the Astros can...



But really, I think you're overreacting, Putin, SC:

Baseball's changed DOZENS of times...that's part of the game.

It's almost contrary to the game to moan about it changing...

Constant inter-league would be a bit odd, yes, and I'd like more NL/AL-exclusive pairings and matchups, but change is inevitable...

About the only thing I'd like to see NOT adapted is the DH--I HATE that...it probably will someday, but still...

And as far as the expanded Wild Card goes--

I agree, but as we just had a WC team win one of the more exciting Series in recent memory...

Well, folks said ONE Wild Card would ruin baseball...and it hasn't.

I'd rather see EXPANSION, Putin, to the logical 32 that's made the NFL nearly perfect in its arrangement (now just get a team in Los Angeles, say, from St. Louis or Jacksonville, and keep a team in St.. Louis, either by keeping the Rams there or moving the Rams to LA and the Jags to STL, and you're set, bingo.)

I'd like to see Montreal maybe get the Expos back...
And a team in San Juan or Mexico City, for the huge Latin demographic there...

Or else maybe a team in Portland or Buffalo or Indianapolis or New Orleans.

And the Rays and Marlins should BOTH STAY!

Putin...the Marlins have won TWO WORLD SERIES...YOU DON'T DISBAND *THAT!* :O

Come on...yeah, their attendance is lousy, that's what happens when you ahve a lousy team and play in an old football stadium--

They have a new retractable-roof stadium ready in Miami for next year, so see how the attendance goes THEN, and as their team gets better.

And lay off the Rays, too...

Im not moaning about change, I want change, change back. Baseball lacks, among other things, sufficient number of cross division rivalries. Take away the meaningless games of the Mets vs KC Royals and add a couple more games against the national league, make the All Star game relevant again, and make the World series what it was meant to be, a spectacle of two teams who would otherwise never meet playing in the championship of baseball.

Its not like Im saying that we should go back to first place playing second place for the championship.

And Brewers switching leagues was completely different. Milwakee was always a National league town so it was welcomed, Houston has been as well so we'll see how it goes.

The announcement will happen in November, when the Astros news owner is approved. It's contingent on whether he gets a reduced price (50 million).

There's different kinds of change. There's comparatively minor tweaks that come with expansion like the Wildcard, and then there's completely transformative changes that end the game as we know it. Season-long interleague play is a big step towards the latter.

Yeah I didn't like the WC when it was introduced, and way too many WC teams have made the WS, but if you're going to expand to such a large league, something like that I could understand. Moving to a 15 v 15 league is terrible, though.

"Come on...yeah, their attendance is lousy, that's what happens when you ahve a lousy team and play in an old football stadium--"

It doesn't matter if they're good or lousy. Like I said, TB was near dead last in attendance and they were good. The same thing happens with the Marlins because more often than not they're actually good, but are either last or near last in attendance.

People in Florida do not like sports. Or the ones that do, the snowbirds from NY, simply maintain their support for their old teams. Miami Dolphins get no attendance. The Florida Panthers are likely to be relocated, probably to Quebec. Sports are for cold or temperate weather people who can't go to the beach for entertainment, with the exception of Texans who have always had a great sports culture.

"People in Florida do not like sports."

...

I'm sorry...

The "Stupid Comment" alarm is buzzing...buzzing...8...9..9.5...9.9...10...it's off the charts! :O

The Miami Dolphins--5 SB appearanches, 2 SB wins, they suck now, but still retain a good fanbase, and one of the most historic in the game!

The Tampa Bay Bucs--1 SB win and in the playoff hunt with a good fanbase...

The Miami Heat--One game away from the championship this year, and THEY had good attendance numbers, too...

Tampa Bay Lightning--Around 15K in attendance, which is about par for a "decent" attendance in the NHL, as the smallest arena sits that many and 15K=roughly 85% of most other areana's capacity, so 85%=about a B, and as a Sunbelt team, that's DAMN impressive...oh, and they have some of the league's best players, a great captain, and a Cup win...all with a loyal fanbase (that would be larger if not for the Panthers dragging them down...THERE'S a Florida team you can nix and no one would miss...)

Oh, and lest I forget:

THE GATORS!
THE SEMINOLES!
AND THE REST OF THE SUPER-ACTIVE NCAA SPORTS PROGRAMS THAT GARNER HUGE ATTENDANCE, GROSS PRODUCT NUMBERS, PROFITS, AND ARE AMONG THE MOST WELL-KNOWN AND BEST-SUPPORTED IN THE COUNTRY!

DUMB!

DUMB saying Floridian don't like sports!

The Dolphins have no attendance because 1. They haven't won a game and suck out loud and 2. TAMPA, a FLORIDA TEAM, is doing well and in the playoff chase, so yeah, they're losing fans, but to ANOTHER Florida team (2 or 3 if you count the Gators/Seminoles as well!)

So, yeah, dumb.

And saying "Sports are for cold or temperate weather people who can't go to the beach for entertainment" is, likewise, DUMB!

The California teams across the board draw WELL!

Dodgers and Angels--pretty good...Angels better than the Dodgers, as they were actually competitive this year, but both did fine, and the Ddogers ESPECIALLY are an iconic franchise and an iconic LOS ANGELES FRANCHISE, with their other iconic bit also coming from Brooklyn, of courwse, but still, from Sandy Koufax and Don Drysdale to the wins in 1981 and Gibson's iconic blast in 1988 and the Grand Slam win to get into the playoffs a few years ago and Mannywood and being in the NLCS just a couple years ago....iconic here!

And then you have the Giants--LAST YEAR'S champs and THEY draw well--and the A's, who also ahve a great history in the Bay area with the 1970s and 1990s and now suck, but that's how sports goes.

THEN you have the LOS ANGELES LAKERS!

Quite possibly a Top 5 North America grossing team in terms of total fans and revenue and the like...*I* hate them--and the NBA in general, I'm not weeping AT ALL it's locked out right now--but the fact remains...

Folks are seeing those games because, be it Northern or Southern California...

CALIFORNIANS LOVE SPORTS...AND WE LOVE THEM EVEN BEING "BEACHFRONT/BAYFRONT" PEOPLE!"

Same goes for the Ducks, Kings, and Sharks...at least 15K in attendance, both with playoff appearances, the Kinbgs with a SC appearance, the Ducks with 2 and 1 Cup!



So knock off your stupid, STUPID sports generalizations, Putin...

LA is the 2nd largest city and it doesn't even have a franchise in the country's most popular sport. I think that says it all.

Your Tampa example doesn't work, and in fact proves my point. The Bucs went *10-6* last year but failed to sell out any home games. They had the worst attendance in the NFC. By contrast, the Broncos, who went 4-12, were 5th in attendance (12th by capacity, still far better than the Bucs who were 31st by capacity).

The lightning had "B" attendance on one of their best seasons ever. You do remember that they were very close to making it to the finals.

In 2010 they were ranked 18th in total attendance and 21st in filling capacity.
In 2009 they were ranked 21st in total attendance and 26th in filling capacity.

The Oakland A's, probably more iconic than the Dodgers when you consider how many titles they've won (they were the Yankees of the 80s), are regularly among the worst attended franchises in baseball. By contrast the Twins were in the top 5 this year even though they were absolutely horrible. (That might have something to do with their new awesome stadium, but still).

You're not doing yourself any favors here. In terms of pro sports, with the exception of Lakers who have won numerous titles and have appeared in a gazillion finals, attendance among non-Texan hot weather sports franchises ranges from abysmal to mediocre, with most falling in the former category. Texas isn't even particularly good with baseball attendance. Despite the Rangers back to back WS years, they're pretty weak on attendance. Houston does better when you factor in how bad they've been. I mean Texas was 63% capacity and they were a world series team in 2010.

Finally yes let's look at college sports. Florida State has abysmal attendance figures when you consider capacity. Ditto Stanford. Even though they have the best QB in a generation, they got an avg of around 40,000 per game in 2010. Miami averaged quite a bit less than 50,000 in both 2008 and 2009. They averaged 52,000 in 2010.

USC and Florida do well, again a function of repeated success and national title prospects. The real test is what happens when your team is not doing that well, what happens then.

Congrats to the Cardinals. I watched the last two games and they were quite good.

Also, curious on what the Saint's attendance is...thought Florida has too many football teams imo. Jacksonville can leave as far as I'm concerned. Also somebody mentioned the Bills earlier I thought....aren't they considering a move to Toronto?

Back to Baseball, don't cut the Rays - I love them, even though I'm a Yanks fan - and Montreal has already shown it cant handle a baseball team. Perhaps another team in any other southern state? I mean, going by states that were in the Confederacy (that South), you have the Nationals, Rays, Marlins, Cardinals, Braves, Astros, and Texans....am I missing any? For that many highly populated states, that's not too many teams. I mean, California almost has as many teams.

KC I guess, and Arizona. Saints attendance isn't great but I'm not going to hate on them with Katrina and all. They were 19th in 2009 the year they won the superbowl. I was recently in NOLA though and it seems like everybody loves the Saints. And I think this year attendance is pretty good.

Bills attendance was real bad last year but most years they are in the middle of the pack, despite being not very good for a decade. They're not moving to Toronto as long as Wilson is alive. The problem is when what happens after that because he hasn't laid out a clear plan. I still don't think they move to Toronto.

And what are YOUR standards, Putin?

Oddly enough, NOW who's being the sports elitist, claiming only a certain, elect, elite markets are "real" sports markets, while the rest are mediocre to abysmal to crap...hm?

What happened to "according to NEED?"

The Phoenix Coyotes are SURE in need, after all... ;)

But seriously:

-Yeah...no, sorry, the A's are not more iconic than the Dodgers, well-known baeball
"fact," the "Six Crown Jewel Teams" are unofficially the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Cubs, Dodgers, and Giants--and as you can see that those three represent the three oldest rivalries, often the hottest rivalries, with the most amount of HOFers and titles and such collected between those six than any other configuration...THOSE have been largely accepted by the baseball public as The Crown Jewel Six. The A's are in the "Good" category, so to speak, as for all their great, GREAT teams and titles...they've also gone through three cities and some really, REALLY bad stretches of prolonged losing, the likes of which none of those six above really have faced, with the exception of the Cubbies...and let's face it--that's why the Cubbies ARE loved, they're the Lovable Losers, that's their identity, and that, WGN broadcasting, Ernie Banks, losing to the Cardinals, and warm, breezy afternoons at Wrigley Field are what's made them one of the most iconic teams ever. The A's can't touch that. The Mets can't touch that, to be fair. So yeah...it's LA/SF/NYY/BOS/STL/CHC, and that's just the way it is, has been, and will be.

-Oh, NOW you're considering capacity for Florida State? BEFORE That didn't matter...after all, the Marlins not being able to fill an old, run-down football stadium because football stadiums are generally far larger than baseball fields...THAT'S out of boundds, but for FSU, because it suits your cobled-together-argument based on a flimsy premise, tHEN it's OK? Sure...whatever you say...

-And I like how you say "only" 40,000, byt the way...yeah, try and get 40K to watch YOUU play a sport, and then you can knock such a perfectly-respectable attendance figure.

-What happens when your team does poorly...that's the test? Well...what about the numerous colleges up north that ARE in suck-mode...I mean, Minnesota and Iowa and South Dakota are not exactly world-beaters...NYU and BC both have crappy sports teams...and so on--and yet, by your logic, since they're in a "cold weather climate" they're instantly granted "good team" status.

-Let's go pro with this for a moment--the Expos were relocated from Quebec--doesn't get much colder and Northern than Canada!--to D.C...how does your theory work there? For that matter, What about the Lions' base? It was dying so badly games were blacked out locally and there was talk of taking away their Thanksgiving game anually...NOW they're good again (only took them about 15 years) and they have their fans and attendance back...but where was your argument THEN? What about the New York Knocks, Still Sucking Ever Since Ewing Left--they're NYC basketball...and yet you'd be INSANE to compare them to the Lakers or Heat or Mavericks or Spurs in terms of keeping up a fan base right now...but becasue they're NYC, they get special treatment?

-Maybe most glaring of all--it's OK to move teams that underperform and have poor fan support such in Atlanta, Phoenix, and Florida...but talk about moving the New York Islanders, and WHOA! that's a franchise too far!

...But the thing is, I'd AGREE with that, Putin, they sHOULD stay, but NOT because they're northern or "Cold weather," but becasue they have a legacy to them and that deserves to be preserved, just like as soon as Phoenix becomes the Quebec Nordiques 2.0, the new Winnipeg Jets should get the rights to the jerseys and records of the "old" Winnipeg Jets back...



LEGACY, NOT LOCATION, DETERMINES A FRANCHISE'S WORTH!

The Detroit Lions have 0 SB titles and have never even been to a Conference title game.

Green Bay, a far, far, far, FAR smaller and, by all conventional measures, inferior market, has been to 5 SBs, winning 4 of them, has the only undefeated team in the NFL as of this week, numerous HOFers, AND has the distinction of having the SB trophy named after their iconic coach Vince Lombardi.

There were more Californian teams in the NHL playoffs last year than Canadian ones.

The Ducks, sharks, and Kings each have claims to fame, each have iconic players, the Kings had The Great 99 on their team when he was at his scoring peak and broke the Goals and Points records in a Kings uniform, and the Ducks have a HOFer in Teemu Selanne, his 600+ goals, and the fact that, in their history, on average they've made the playoffs every other year--not bad at all for a warm weather expansion team, eh?--have made 2 Stanley Cups--not bad, again--have WON a Cup, and have done so while all the while keeping their attendance at the respectable 15,000-level when NHL hockey is LA/ANA's 3rd or 4th most popular sport.

And let's not even BEGIN to get into how important the Dodgers are to Los Angeles in terms of legacy and the Latin American community here, because THAT is just going to lead to a hell of a lot of irritation on my part if you start to blind yourself to THAT.

LEGACY, NOT LOCATION.

Which brings us back to Los Angeles and the NFL...possibly the weakest point in my argument...

If I'M right...why doesn't LA have a team?

Simply put--not for a lack of football passion...but because this is LA, where there are two prevailing political attitudes:

1. Let's screw everything up as best we can and
2. Let's screw everything up as best we can

Let's not forget Los Angeles had TWO TEAMS for a stretch, shall well, the Raiders AND Rams, and BOTH did well in LA financially and legacy-wise, with the Rams making the playoffs--hard to do in the NFC West in the Montana/Young-era of 49er Dominance I HOPE is back--and with the Los Angeles Raiders winning SB XVIII?

So...why are both gone?

Both wanted new deals...and the city had a great idea:

"Hey..we're LA! W'ere big-shots, we don't have to treat people with respect! So let's use one team as a threat against the other to settle with us or else they can go and we'll have a team, and both will settle because, hey, we're awesome like that!"

...And the Rams and Raiders promptly said a heart F** YOU to the city, rightfully so, and left.

THEN we had the chance, in 2002, of getting a team back via expansion...
It was a done deal...it was down to LA and Houston...
And the NFL said all LA had to do was give a viable plan and the team was theirs...
It was in the BAG!

...But OUR POLITICIANS AND BUSINESSMEN ONCE AGAIN COULDN'T AGREE!

And so the NFL said a hearty "Well, you guys ARE stupid for not learning from previous mistakes... F*** YOU once more!" and now we have a team once more in the heart of Texas, and the Houston Texans' run at the playoffs this year can thus be thanked in part because LA fumbled not once but twice.

SO.

It's NOT for lack of passion.
OR for a lack of a viable market.
OR because we don't care about our sports here.
OR because sports do better elsewhere.

In fact, let's list the California teams, let's just see how rock-solid they are financially...

-San Jose Sharks: All alone in the Bay Area, good turnout and playoffs...fine there...
-Los Angeles Kings: 15K and rising thanks to recent success...looks pretty goods there
-Anaheim Ducks: 15K and rising thanks to Samueli being a rock-solid owner...good...
-San Fran. Giants: Just-previously WS Champs, and a long history...they're good...
-LA Dodgers: Ownership woes there, so fair enough, but the team's still turning a profit...
-LA Angels: Fairly consistent in attendance and the standings, decent for being #2...
-San Diego Padres: Meh, so-so there, but not too serious...mostly due to the econ...
-San Diego Chargers: Good, but contemplating a move to LA, but that's still California..
-San Fran 49ers: Good profit despite poor ownership, with a new stadium on the way...
-Oakland Raiders: See 49ers and Chargers
-Los Angeles Lakers: The Yankees of the NBA in terms of profit and notoriety...
-Los Angeles Clippers: Here I freely concede, but in fairness, they shouldn't be in LA...
-G.S. Warriors: Stable and steady if not spectacular...leaving...
-Sacremento Kings: Contemplating a move to Anaheim, but again, that's still California

NOW let's look at some cold-weather teams:

-Buffalo Bills: Contemplating a move to Toronto (shouldn't happen imo, but still...)
-Buffalo Sabres: Constantly hurt by the NY/NJ/TOR markets (should stay, but still)
-Toronto Raptors (WHY DOES THIS TEAM EXIST...?)
-Minnesota Twins: Frequently having monetary woes (MUST STAY...but, again, still...)

And so on--that's one form each sport as a representative, and I could go on, but I think my two points are clear:

1. Legacy first, location second...or else tell Green Bay they're losing their team
2. CALIFORNIA, at least, and I'd argue the Pacific Coast as a whole, does FINE sports-wise

"KC I guess, and Arizona"

Yeah, cut two WS winners...AGAIN, LEGACY FIRST.

I don't think you need contraction AT ALL, but if we're going to do this, let's NOT kill WS-winning franchises, eh?

If I had to pick two teams to get rid of before this season...

I'd pick nobody, no one really deserves to go...

Baseball cancelled Fringe tonight. Fuck you baseball.

Meh...the best thing to ever happen on that show was Leonard Nimoy decided to be genrous and grace it with his presence.

:p

(I kid, I odn't wathc the show...but come on, it WAS A good series...the last game was a bit dull, but it was fun to see a celebration on a home field with the fans and for a local kid to be the WS MVP for his boyhood team--and win that Corvette! DAMN that thing is fine-looking!) :D

I find baseball to be an incredible sport, but also incredibly boring to spectate. The last time I saw a game was 2004. (Sox v Yankees, whichever game Curt Shilling pitched hurt in). Of which was awesome, but I probably wouldn't have even gone if it hadn't been for a girlfriend and her entire family's Red Sox mania. It's a fun sport, and can be exciting, but usually it isn't.

"I find baseball to be an incredible sport, but also incredibly boring to spectate. The last time I saw a game was 2004. (Sox v Yankees, whichever game Curt Shilling pitched hurt in). Of which was awesome, but I probably wouldn't have even gone if it hadn't been for a girlfriend and her entire family's Red Sox mania. It's a fun sport, and can be exciting, but usually it isn't. "

Wow " i don't even like baseball but i went to one of the greatest games ever" fml.

Obi they have moved award winning franchises an changed their names before in the past.

This WS has demonstrated quite conclusively how no sport does end of game drama/suspense quite like baseball. Rangers were one out away from winning it all in Game 6 on two different occasions...and there were several games where every single pitch was captivating.

Getting fouled every 2 seconds in basketball during the last 2-3 minutes doesn't quite have the same drama. Not being able to see the puck in hockey mitigates the drama of the overtime or last second goal. In football you should spend more time watching instant replay and official reviews than the actual game.