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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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abgemacht (1076 D(G))
18 Oct 11 UTC
Mod Policies
So, there has recently been some confusion/criticism about how mods handle cases. Without talking about any specific cases, I'd like to review how we handle different cases and the reasons for it. Hopefully, this can turn into a productive discussion, since this site is community-driven.
76 replies
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Mack Eye (119 D)
19 Oct 11 UTC
New 10-day phase game
Do you choose evil ways instead of love?...

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=70368
0 replies
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Cockney (0 DX)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Gunboat and the
Why the hell can't people press the ready button in gunboat games?????

its not like they are waiting for an answer to a message or anything
its ridiculous. If they want to wait because they cant play in the next phase or something, then they shouldn't have agreed to play in the game in the first place with that phase length
16 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
Porn from feminist perspective
Here discuss feminism with emphasis on misogyny and the morality of pornography. Give me your views and moral justifications. Thanks.
147 replies
Open
fortknox (2059 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Major discussion topic...
"who would get Windsor castle if Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip split up?"
30 replies
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Draugnar (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
So Mr. V was actually Diplomat33.
More inside.
87 replies
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orathaic (1009 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
copyright violations?
So hasbro owns the rights to this game?
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orathaic (1009 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC

"Mr. V is clearly a troll, I will answer him seriously anyway. This website is run with open source code written by Kestas, and it would probably be shut down by Hasbro if it were to start making money."

First i would question that logic.

But second I'd like to point out some simple facts.

Hasbro owns the copyright on a game called 'Diplomacy' This website is a game called 'webDiplomacy' (previously 'phpDiplomacy') - this is not a copy.

Hasbro owns a game with a map, (this exact image: http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSS-KM1vvT46TJLwhehN7wYKBar8cCyrzyVqwn0vOhyyCEhQJqpUH2lve-q ) this website uses this map: http://webdiplomacy.net/variants/Classic/cache/sampleMap.png

Now both maps do use the same names, but those are names of cities and countries, on which Hasbro does not own the copyright.

Hasbro owns the copyright to a rulebook (see: http://www.diplom.org/~diparch/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf )

This site has some rules: http://webdiplomacy.net/intro.php

Again, they are not directly copied.

In total this webdip has approximately 0 copyright violations.

It is possible to patent ideas, like those contained in the rules, however i do not believe Hasbro owns any patents on these ideas. (and if they did they would likely have expired decades ago)
SacredDigits (102 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
The game we play is similar enough to the game that Hasbro holds a copyright on that they could definitely take some form of action if they chose to, and they would definitely have better lawyers than Kestas could afford.
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
Why would they? This is basically an ad for them.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
@SacredDigits, you can't copyright the game itself, only the physical representation of it and the name.

There is no case there, i don't care how good your lawyers happen to be.
santosh (335 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
First up, copyright violations are out of the question. Copyrights protect the form of expression. Kestas generated his own maps and wrote his own code. No problems there. Now, 'Diplomacy' is a registered Hasbro trademark. This does not mean that you can't make and sell your own board games involving seven countries that have to negotiate and fight each other. This simply means you can't call it 'Diplomacy' and package it with the same look and feel, because then you'll be confusing consumers.
In short, this site is most definitely legal, and violates no IP laws in my opinion, and Kestas can charge users if he wants to.
2ndWhiteLine (2611 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
Under Hasbro's copyright, they control any derivative forms of the game. I'm guessing their lawyers could make a pretty good case that this constitutes a "derivative" form of the game. Under fair use doctrine, though, webdip is nonprofit and also, I would argue, adds to the market value of Diplomacy, since it actually gets more people interested in the game who are likely to go out and buy a board. If the site turned into a pay site, though, Hasbro would definitely have a case.
SacredDigits (102 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
I think this part would be the most objectionable. From the FAQ page:

#
I want to learn the complete rules

* See Avalon Hill's rulebook.

At this point, the site acknowledges that they're using Hasbro's intellectual property (the Diplomacy rulebook).
Draugnar (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
Tell that to the folks who got shutdown with the Scrabble clone. Different name and their own graphics and interface, but Hasbro shut them down because they had their own electronic version and they felt it was diluting the market.

No, the real reason we are safe in enjoying this is Hasbro has no electronic version of the game and has no desire to start one and there has been a play-by-mail then a play-by-email community for years supported by the games creator, so the hobbyist sites are safe for now and probably as long as Allan B. Calhamer is around.

On a side note, this December 7th marks Mr. Calhamer's 80th birthday. I think it would be great if we, as a community, sent him something as a thank you for all the years of pleasure he has brought us.
SacredDigits (102 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
Various software publishers have tried to make electronic versions of Diplomacy with no real success. Because any serious commercial version would have to have an AI, and it's really hard to make a decent AI for Diplomacy. I've seen some of the versions, and the AI is laughable. So be thankful that we don't have computer overlords yet.
Draugnar (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
IT should also be noted that the chances of winning are irrelavent. The fact that Hasbro could sick the high price lawyers and drag him through court for years and years, bankrupting him in the process, would give them the win by default. They could file suit and appeal it many times even if they lost and Kestas would be broke. So tell me, do you really think what they could legally win matters at all?
spyman (424 D(G))
17 Oct 11 UTC
Hasbro actually tried to buy scrabulous for $10 million before shutting it down. Scrabulous is still around, by the way, it is now called Lexulous. The creators have made some small changes to distinguish it from scrabble. Point of contention included the similarity of the original name to scrabble, the fact the game was basically identical and that there was a link to the official rules.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
"At this point, the site acknowledges that they're using Hasbro's intellectual property (the Diplomacy rulebook)."

nope - if they actually put up a copy (like the link i posted) to Hasbro's intellectual property, then sure, there would be a violation. Saying 'go read their rulebook' does not - infact it encourages people to go out and buy that piece of intellectual property, though i'm not sure how that figures into fair use.

And again, they don't own the ideas contained within the rules. The just own the physical representation of the rulebook - the form of expression, ie the specific rulebook and how it is written.

"Tell that to the folks who got shutdown with the Scrabble clone"

They have a game with the same board and same name. Now they run a game which is on an 8x8 board and called lexicograph, or something similar.

Same everything, except now they're safe from being sued...
orathaic (1009 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
@Scrabulous -> Lexulous, one small change, and chaning the name...
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
what exactly is the major change here? Same wildly complicated rules besides the ones that would make the game too complicated.
SacredDigits (102 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
But you're ignoring the context of the statement to go read their rulebook. The context is in answer to the question of "I want to learn the complete rules." Which is saying that the complete rules for the game this site runs are the intellectual property of Hasbro.

It's not, "Hey, what's some other game that I might be interested in the rules of?" It's "What are the rules of THIS game?" (paraphrased).
spyman (424 D(G))
17 Oct 11 UTC
@orathaic, they did a little more than just change the name, they modified the board and the rules. The number squares now have different values and are in different locations and you now get eight tiles instead of seven.
Draugnar (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
@orathaic - They had a different name. Scrabulous. It differs more than webDiplomacy or phpDiplomacy. And they had the same board? Impossible. The board is a physical piece of plastic or wood or whatever. No, they had their own graphic image, just as we do. Arguable, it is a perfect apples to apples comparison. Now, if Kestas only offered baord variants, then he could claim the board was offered. But the classic game is the same board just as the Scrabulous board was the same board. It is an electronic image that represents the same playing surface with all the same connections between territories and all the same names.

But again, you haven't adressed the issue of the fact that Hasbro could just bankrupt Kestas by dragiing him through the courts for years. You don't have to win when you can put your opponent out on the street, penniless and destitute.
SacredDigits (102 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Comics_Publications_v._Fawcett_Publications

For instance.

At a certain point, even though they'd already won once, Fawcett didn't see it as worthwhile to keep going to the courts and settled the case. The fact that they settled for nearly half a mil in 1950's money underscores how costly these legal battles can be.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
The board we use is different, it is the copyright of whoever created it.

There may even be an arguement that it is derived from the same map as diplomacy, but this is derivative of european geography which is in the public domain.

Could they? if Kestas didn't have the money to defend himself would he get a state appointed lawyer? What would it cost him other than attending court, and thus missing work.

Also, what would hasbro gain from such? Would the sever go down? would it be possible to relocate severs and continue to run this site (or a derivative) in another country? I mean thepiratebay is still up, they have clearly found hosts willing to continue supporting them.

As for bankrupting, i'll bet that the users will continue to support server costs as they have in the past, so even bankrupted Kestas could have server paid for.
Draugnar (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
State appointed lawyers apply to criminal cases, not civil cases.
SacredDigits (102 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
It would also require him to send himself or a representative to a US court, and he lives in Australia.
acmac10 (120 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
If it's so much trouble once we get into the legal stuff, we could have a little Hasbro sticker at the bottom just like the Plura one. I hope Hasbro doesn't even bother and I like the home-style of this being run by a non-corporate administrator, but if they pursued us, it might be good to settle for an affiliation of sorts.
Draugnar (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
The board Scrabulous used was different in that it wasn't a photo of an actual Scrabble game board. You are trying to split hairs (and I know you are just playing devil's advocate on this) but that fact is it is more than just European geogrpahy considering some of the liberties ABC took with the geographic lines and the arbitrary divisions of the seas. For instance, we have MAO completely surrounding Por and touching both coasts of Spa. But it could be argued that MAO ends where Por's and Spain's coasts meet in the south. And since when is North Africa on the map? That should be Morocco and Algeria. So the map isn't just a map of that part of the world and the geography argument is flawed.
santosh (335 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
Draug's right of course, even though they have no case, it's fairly easy for a large organization to arm-twist little people out of their way, and uncomfortably commonplace. See http://nissan.com/. Essentially, Nissan sued this guy for cyber-squatting. They had no case, but his legal costs were huge, and only a small percentage was reimbursed. For small businesses, this can be lethal.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
spliting hairs is what legal arguements are about, n'est pas?

also, the specific map is almost exaclty the same as this one: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_1871_1914.jpg

But the point is merely that it is public domain, and thus anything derived from it is also public domain, no?
SacredDigits (102 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
But if you derive something from a copyrighted derivation of the public domain, you're not deriving it from the public domain anymore. For instance, the Jungle Book book is public domain, but if I derived something specifically from the Disney movie based on that public domain work, it doesn't count as deriving it from that public domain work anymore.
kestasjk (64 DMod(P))
17 Oct 11 UTC
We could change the name, use a slightly tweaked variant and drop all references to Diplomacy.. but we like Diplomacy and we like the guys who put it out there, and I think they would like what we're doing.

This is why we link to their rulebook in the FAQ, and why we link to them on the credits page, intro page, and landing page


For me getting into the legal debate about it is like discussing who would get Windsor castle if Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip split up; kind of interesting but totally disconnected from reality
kestasjk (64 DMod(P))
17 Oct 11 UTC
(And before someone mentions Scrabulous again let's not forget they were making $20k/month..)
santosh (335 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4083968/hasbro-v-scrabulous
That and the points about people confusing between Scrabulous and Scrabble
because links to Scrabble and Hasbro were all over Scrabulous, and that Scrabulous did not have it's own set of rules, and probably most importantly, they used the same colors and icons, and the marketing logo looked like Scrabble tiles (atleast according to that pdf) which infringes upon Hasbro's cpoyrights and trademarks. Hasbro had a case there.

In the case of this website, not so much. The legality debate is purely hypothetical of course, but it's definitely interesting, and I'd like to hear the opinion of people doing IP work.
Maniac (189 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
A little while ago a friend of mine invented a tip which could be placed over a snooker or pool cue to aid the player curve the cue ball around an obsticle in order to hit the object ball. He never really got it to market because he called it the "Twister-Tip". Hasbro sued him (they own Twister the game) and he spent so much in patent lawyers defending the cae he ran out of money to market and promote the invention. As I recall it cost him in excess of £60,000. He gave up on the case and hereby hangs the tail, don't start a fight if you don't have to. There is apparantly an unwritten rule in copyright and patent law and it states clearly "Don't fuck with the mouse", it refers to people who have tried to 'copy' anything Walt Disney have created, Disney know that the value of their companyis almost exclusively wrapped up in intellectual property and they will spend their last dollar defending it.

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53 replies
Thucydides (864 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
Animal Rights
Here discuss animal rights. Specifically with reference to animal testing and vegetarianism. Give me your views, and your moral justifications. Thanks.
66 replies
Open
SacredDigits (102 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
I guess I successfully predicted the future in the October ghost ratings topic
As of Friday, I was in four games. In the last 24 hours (well, 30 technically, but it's close) I received the following message three times: "You were defeated, and lost your bet; better luck next time!" Bye bye, highest GR spot for me to date. I've never been so soundly defeated so often in so short a time.
11 replies
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jpgredsox (104 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
The United States Shouldn't Have Entered WW2
The United States intervention in World War Two cost 418,000 American lives. And, really, what did the United States gain from it? Hitler was gone and Nazi Germany was destroyed, but much of Eastern Europe running from East Germany to Russia was under the (de jure or de facto) rule of Stalin and the Soviet Union. U.S. intervention fostered the spread of communism by destroying its primary opponent, fascism, thus setting up the Cold War for the next fifty years.
84 replies
Open
jpgredsox (104 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
The Octopus
I have always been intrigued by this opening (sev-->black sea,
warsaw-->galicia, moscow-->st pete's, st pete's-->gulf of bothnia) but have never really had the balls to try it out. Does anyone prefer this opening/has anyone won by this opening? Any general thoughts on its merits/detriments are welcomed.
9 replies
Open
vontresc (128 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Maps
Hi I used to use the email dip judges, and am rather new to the Webdip site. I really like the setup, but I'm not a huge fan of how the maps are drawn. is it possible to generate a "results" map without the arrows for a more uncluttered look?
6 replies
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redhouse1938 (429 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Hoe is het in Nederland?
Hoe is het in Nederland dan? Ik ben alweer een poosje weg daar. Hoe is het weer bij jullie? Zijn jullie ook dat gezeur van die Wilders zat of is ie nog erg populair bij sommigen? Ben benieuwd.
5 replies
Open
Cachimbo (1181 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Regarding Diplomat33's case; an open letter.
I'm having a hard time with the idea that he might be allowed to continue playing on this site.
30 replies
Open
thinker269 (100 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Question from new guy
Public messaging only: does that mean what I think-that we can only communicate on "Global"?

10 replies
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HavocInside (100 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
New fast pased game!
I am wanting to sit down and play a good game. I was wanting it to be 10-20 min for each turn. Bet only 5. It would be zero but it seems that is not allowed. I require 6 additional players. If you would like to play reply to this thread and spread the word. Once I have the needed players I will post the link to the game. Enjoy, looking forward to a game and have a good day.
0 replies
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Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
18 Oct 11 UTC
The beat on D33 thread.
Have fun with it. It doesn't bother me at all. Just don't sink to profanities.
4 replies
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Ayreon (3398 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Irregular etiquette... cheating
In game Supper's ready France and Austria has a strange comportament:
Austria has 18 SC plus other 2 SC to conquer to France and win instead he does not finish the game leaving the SCs to France while France announces that he wants more England's SCs before Austria win...
It's not regular do I ask the intervent of moderators...
Thanks
1 reply
Open
kestasjk (64 DMod(P))
17 Oct 11 UTC
Male / female pay equality
I just read an article on the BBC, basically someone got sacked for saying women in New Zealand get paid 12% less, but it's because they need more leave (in particular he hinted at women's menstrual cycle as causing regular sick leave in some women)..
33 replies
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stratagos (3269 D(S))
18 Oct 11 UTC
A word on trolls
If you see someone post something so ignorant, so enraging, so *wrong* that you just *have* to respond - the odds are they don't believe it and are just trying to get a reaction. Mute is your friend
18 replies
Open
Balaran (0 DX)
17 Oct 11 UTC
cheating!
when someone is playing 2 countries in a game or chatting to another player to co-ordinate moves in GUNBOAT, Is there anything that can be done to ban them. Ive checked there records and they have played together alot and the cheating is clear.
28 replies
Open
Fasces349 (0 DX)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Corruption in Texas
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/10/why_even_bother_consulting_the.php
2 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
16 Oct 11 UTC
Teen Diplomacy Tournament member list.
the list is below.
54 replies
Open
jpgredsox (104 D)
12 Oct 11 UTC
Young-Earth Creationism
I learned today that, according to polls, a solid 40-50% of Americans believe in Young-Earth creationism, the view that God directly made the Earth and humans (no evolution!) about 6,000-10,000 years ago. Yay for American intelligence!
160 replies
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Invictus (240 D)
18 Oct 11 UTC
Another Disgraceful Act by Chavez
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/17/us-venezuela-opposition-idUSTRE79G65T20111017

What else can you expect?
9 replies
Open
Tolstoy (1962 D)
14 Oct 11 UTC
Is the New World Order unraveling?
I am interested in the opinion of the community:
http://lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan189.html
20 replies
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Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
18 Oct 11 UTC
Russia is my favorite nation to play.
And likely many of yours as well. Let those who smile at a successful triumph by the Tsar gather and show their support of the russian nation gather here in this forum.
9 replies
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Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
Meat eating vs vegetarianism
Im doing a research project on eating meat, so i thought id poll the forum and see what it thinks.
32 replies
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Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
17 Oct 11 UTC
My multi
Well, ill apologize to the community. I wasn't trying to gain points, just fool around in the forums. I hope the community will realize that. I will take what the mods decide to do with me. And i hope i am not shunned (thank goodness you are all not draugnar, j/k drag) Think about my situation here.
5 replies
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Emperor Napoleon (100 D)
17 Oct 11 UTC
Worried about cheating...
I am very concerned that two players in a game I just joined are cheating, however I don't know how to take care of them. I see from another thread here that we can't post cheating accusations on the forum, so... what do I do?
8 replies
Open
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