Nothing "makes" me believe. I choose to believe of my own accord. What convinced me that there is a higher power to believe in is the number of stupid stunts I've survived and the number of times I've seen small acts of charity be returned many fold. I gave a friend in need an alarm clock once. the next week, Congressman Tom Kindness gave me an old futon-ish sofa bed for my new apartment. I've seen so many things that there is no way providence isn't involved.

Is Christianity the only religion? No. If I had been raised in a Jewish or a Buddhist society, they would have given me a reason to follow the tenents of that faith.

I know it doesn't agree 100% with the evangelical point of view, but that is where my faith comes from.

I am genuinely interested.
I won't attack anyone.
but I will certainly have questions
I'll try to be as respectful as possible

The following are not my words...but they are words that resonate with me. I post them because I wonder how everyone else will react, given the topic...

" Throughout history, a wide variety of religions worshiping Molech, Baal, Odin, Jupiter, Zeus, Ahura Mazda, Jehovah, Allah, Quetzalcoatl, Coatlicue, Vishna, and others far too numerous to elucidate here have come and gone.

The followers of each of these religions believed that theirs was the true faith and contained within it the correct answers to life's great questions. All too often followers of a faith were ever eager to cut the throats of those who disagreed with them.

But on many of the most basic aspects, mankind's multitude of religious thoughts contradict each other. On what would seem to be the most basic truth of all, just how many gods there are, the various religions throughout the world are in complete disagreement. It therefore follows that most of the world's religions, if indeed not all of them, do not have the correct answer to the basic question of how many gods there are. They cannot. For one to be correct means the others are incorrect. Yet the followers of each religion believe they are correct, even though this is impossible.

Ergo, belief that one is correct is not in and of itself proof that one actually is correct.

If one posits the existence of a god or gods able to communicate their presence to human minds, then as an inevitable result of the existence of that god or gods, it would be expected that all humans, or at least the priests who claim communications with the god(s), would have a unanimity of opinion as to how many gods there are.

Likewise, if one posits the existence of a god or gods able to communicate their existence to human minds, then as an inevitable result of the existence of that god or gods, able to communicate to human minds, all theologies would be in accord, and there would be no need for missionaries, let alone inquisitions and holy crusades.

But there is a diversity of opinions as to how many gods there are. And there are missionaries, crusades, the inquisition, and the burning of a million heretics.

The world is not as it would be if there was a god or gods which could communicate their existence to the minds of humankind. None of the conditions which must inevitably follow the existence of a god or gods able to communicate their existence to the minds of humankind can be found anywhere on Earth.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum, no such gods exist. "

I think greater minds than mine have spent many years over this...the little I glean from all that cognition... is that we can't prove any god exists or that any god does not exist... perhaps it comes down to which side of the fence we want to wait on.....or perch on ... waiting for the miracle to come...

Belief doesn't require proof not must it be proven. Faith is the substance of belief and faith is following those beliefs despite the lack of empirical evidence.

Dragnaur, you hit it right on.
Religion is faith-based, and I certainly have mine.
And of course, we find reason in all things that happen (at least I do) regardless of whether it is good or bad.
And yes, there are many things that happen that just seem to be impossible. They happen though. :)
Go Christ!

ok, so faith, but what gives you that faith? WHY do you believe it?

what makes you not believe??

how much time you got

Because there is as much proof for god as there is for leprechauns
No friend, the burden of proof to someone suggesting something so fantastical is on them.

But I digress
I started this to find out why others do believe, not why I do not, as that I already know

honestly i believe that beliefs are mostly formed in childhood based on the way you are brought up.
there are circumstances when a person is drawn to religion for a certain reason(evangalism or a life changing experience(near-death))

@ Darwyn
"Likewise, if one posits the existence of a god or gods able to communicate their existence to human minds, then as an inevitable result of the existence of that god or gods, able to communicate to human minds, all theologies would be in accord, and there would be no need for missionaries, let alone inquisitions and holy crusades."

It is impossible for a god capable of communicating with humans to exist if not all humans agree on what he says? What if...
The god says different things to different people,
The people interpret what the god says differently,
The god only speaks to certain people, or none at all,
People make stuff up and claim that God said it?

we are all reinventing the wheel here....no athiest can prove god dosen't
exist.....no believer can prove god exists....does it come down to individual psychology....if you have a need for a god...you have faith...if not.....you doubt....or deny....?

Religion only exists to provide people a means to deal with death and all the other crap people have to deal with. That's why all religions are different, because they are borne out of different cultures.
Using the Catholic Church as an example, having something as powerful as the Vatican is a fantastic political tool. And because many people *have* to believe, they consequently ignore any irregularities or changes within their religion.

Yes, I am an atheist, and yes, I am fully aware that I cannot prove that no gods exist. BUT if any god or gods were to make their presence known to me I'd be more than willing to change my mind. And the fact that that hasn't happened only serves to strengthen my own belief.

Yes the Vatican is a powerful political tool. A medical tool too. The Pope just announced that condoms cause AIDS.

...a case of faith moving mountains but failing to influence a small and delicate virus....oh well the liberal chardenay[sic] swilling chattering classes will have a great time with it ....and miss the point....

@zuzak
"It is impossible for a god capable of communicating with humans to exist if not all humans agree on what he says? What if...
The god says different things to different people,
The people interpret what the god says differently,
The god only speaks to certain people, or none at all,
People make stuff up and claim that God said it?"

Or, as is the case with my faith-- there are many *different* gods, who do not necessarily agree with each other and who do not necessarily recognize each other as gods? Ask a Christian how many gods there are, and he will tell you only one-- but that is because he only communes with his one god, and if he believes that my gods are real entities at all, he does not recognize them as gods.

First a comment on the topic starter. I believe your question is to 'all religious people' and firstly christians, as to why they believe. Am I correct? Then, that question has certain questionable presumptions:

1. All religions are equal.
2. Humanity can be divided in two sorts of people: believers and non-believers or not-religous people.

In think these two presuppostions are flawed. The first is questionable, the second is definitely not true. Every person believes in something, in that what his impulses are telling him is true, or that 'science' is true or any other thing people build their trust and confidence on. When Nietzsche discovered we human had killed God and were now doomed to a meaningless and short existence in some backward part of a universe of unimaginable size, he went mad. Nowadays we supposedly live with the idea of our own meaninglessness or search our own meaning in our world, what is called belief or faith since there's no proof.*

Futhermore, I am intrigued by your question: is there a reason it is explicitely asked to christians?


Now to tell something about my own faith. Telling about your faith is telling about your live, so here it goes: I was born in a christian family, went to christian schools and attended a christian church. That could be the first reason for me to be christian, but that would be too simple. I already confessed my faith publicly and I could never do that if I didn't belief God really existed! Even now I cannot imagine some people would confess faith in God if only for their family or community wanting it. Perhaps, if I lived in Pakistan I would be muslim, but I'm not. Experience with other wise christians has tought me one thing: imagining what could be or what could have been won't help you. God asks to take the things as they come to you.

To be honest, in later years I have experienced some doubts. In my teens I was really convinced God existed, that He was there. And he still is. But I had some questions raised: what if the atheists are right and there is really nothing? When I take a short look around at the world and see none of God's precense? Or, am I just not looking good enough? And, what about evolution? Should I deny it, try to incorporate it or leave it where it is: a scientific theory? And, even more personally: does God want me at all?

In all these things God has been there, of that I am convinced. God stands ready for anyone to come to Him burdended with sin and other wrong things. The Scipture says: 'That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us' (Acts 17,27 KJ) These words are from Paul when he preached on the Areopagus. God is not far away, and I am always confirmed in this, as far as I may have strayed, God has always the door open. Who could believe in such a being? Such undying and fierce love? From a being who holds the constellations in His hand, and whose breath gives live and light to a thousand stars? Call it 'credo quia absurdum' but christianity has never tried to make its view of God more simple. In the very conception of God He is already unfathomable...

Next to these 'inner' motivations I see God at work all around me, in the people I meet whose lives have really been changed, by events happening with meaning for me. This God is a personal God, he wants a relationship with such a little, fragile, shortlived creature as I am. Furthermore there are many many glimps of God to be seen in the universe. Ask yourself the question why there is so much order in the universe. I know it's not proof, but it is strange and fascinating at the same time. What more will we discover of God's grand design of the universe?


* Personally I think this definition of faith, as: 'an assumption made by lack of evidence/proof' to shortsighted. It follows the definition that proof of things is the best we can get, which is foolishness. But I understand, when God is out of the question we can only build upon our senses. But how do we determine our impulses are true? Are things true because they work? What if our brain is fooling us?

And so the question for Sicarius: why do you believe in proof?

"Ask yourself the question why there is so much order in the universe. I know it's not proof, but it is strange and fascinating at the same time. What more will we discover of God's grand design of the universe?"

What?! Firstly, order? Good luck arguing that one! Secondly, what is the point of the question at the end? I mean from a linguistic POV, the term 'more' implies [using your words] that we've already discovered something, which, having read your post, I do not see to be the case.

Also, just because I'm a linguist and am curious [i.e. feel free to not answer this], are you a native speaker of English?

Darwyn:

You have succesfully proven that, provided there are no impostors, there's not only one God whom says the same things to every person he communicates with and his message gets across perfectly to humans.

There's still the next possibilities:

1 - That there is more than one God (*1)

2 - That God shows himself different to different people

3 - That different people understand God's message differently (*2)

4 - That there are some people who really can comunicate with God and agree, and other people who are lying or fooling themselves about it, and say different things.

5 - That there is a God whom does not communicate with humans at all. (*3)

(*1) - The Old Testament doesn't say that "there is only one God", but that there is only one "true God", as a "non-compete" clause. It doesn't mean that other Gods don't exist, it means that it is wrong to pay tribute to them if you are a Jew.

(*2) - This is very unlikely mostly because of the completely opposite things that have been done in the name of religion.

(*3) - This is my favourite option.

To answer the topic, I believe this is the case based on two things:

1 - The laws of physics. They're just too perfect and convenient to have happened by randomness. There is no logical argument as to why an electron behaves like a wave in given circumstances but behaves like a particle in another set of circumstances. It just does, and its a damn good thing, otherwise the Universe would not exist.

2 - I believe God (or the creator, as I prefer to call him) does not intervene in our businesses in any way. I think if he did, things would be pretty different... and boring to him. Its like playing a game with all the cheats on, what's fun about that? He created the Universe, set the conditions for life to exist, and let it roll to see how it went. Fudging with your own experiments is usually bad science.

I understand and accept that this is not definitive proof of anything... but given that I've not found definitive proof of the contrary either, I content myself with believing that this is the most likely scenario.

"no athiest can prove god dosen't exist"

Isn't my post a logical proof? If not, how isn't it?

And none of the following makes sense...
"What if...
The god says different things to different people,"
So he wants to make himself known, but has entirely different messages to different people? God is schizo?

"The people interpret what the god says differently,"
God is omniscient, but cannot explain himself clear enough to avoid misinterpretation?

"The god only speaks to certain people, or none at all,"
Fine...but why tell his own son one thing and Mohammad and Buddha something completely different

"People make stuff up and claim that God said it?"
My point exactly. Cuz I think the other questions fall into the "God works in mysterious ways" excuse.

"there are many *different* gods, who do not necessarily agree with each other and who do not necessarily recognize each other as gods?"
Well that falls into exactly the trap my proof points out. IF there is a god or gods, by definition they know about each other.

Show me how the following is false:
"as an inevitable result of the existence of that god or gods, able to communicate to human minds, all theologies would be in accord".

Some of you may get a kick out of this...

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/

Well, I have a busy day today and this is going to be a heavy topic...but I'd like to comment on this from Xapi:

"I believe God (or the creator, as I prefer to call him) does not intervene in our businesses in any way"

He intervened the moment he made himself known.

Did he make himself known? I don't think he has.

I don't believe in any supernatural manifestation.

Then how do you know him? How do you know he exists if he hasn't made himself known to you?

"So he wants to make himself known, but has entirely different messages to different people? God is schizo?"

If he was to make himself known, he might have his reasons to want to be interpreted differently in different times or by different people.

""The god only speaks to certain people, or none at all,"
Fine...but why tell his own son one thing and Mohammad and Buddha something completely different"

Well, now you're assuming those are the ones he actually talked to. And, again, there may be reasons to say different things to different people at different times. I believe you are assuming that if a God exists, he must be all benevolent and transparent. That may not be the case.


***"People make stuff up and claim that God said it?"
My point exactly. Cuz I think the other questions fall into the "God works in mysterious ways" excuse."***

The fact that people make stuff up and claim God said it, doesn't mean that there is no God, or that he doesn't speak to certain people, and the rest make it up. See above.

"as an inevitable result of the existence of that god or gods, able to communicate to human minds, all theologies would be in accord".

Scenarios were this is not true:

Different Gods 'struggle' for the worship of people. They say different things to those they communicate to, some claiming to be the Only True God, wich later gets reworded as "there is no other God".

A single God makes decitions that are not based upon the humans actually knowing the truth, but upon the humans acting in a certain way.

There is only one "true" religion wich is "right" whereas the rest are just followers of madmen.

People do interpret things differently, even when it is a message from God. Also, the chance that the message is corrupted through word of mouth.

"Then how do you know him? How do you know he exists if he hasn't made himself known to you?"

I dont't KNOW he exists, I THINK he does, and I've explained why.

Oh crap another religion discussion... why am I reading this when I've got so much work to do? :-) It's of like a train wreck of logical fallacies, I just can't look away.

like this: Draugnar: "What convinced me that there is a higher power to believe in is the number of stupid stunts I've survived and the number of times I've seen small acts of charity be returned many fold."
An obvious argument from ignorance. I can't explain X there for god did it or evil (good) spirits are at work. This is used by creationists all the time, I can't understand how X evolved therefore god did it.

anyway here's a nice quote:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

This thread has gone off topic...christmas is the celebration me the birth of Jesus Christ who they believe is the son of God and that he was born to the virgin Mary. Therefore you should not be debating on possibility of religion but the possibility of divine impregnation of a virgin woman.