Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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sentient_6 (100 D)
31 Oct 08 UTC
Anyone care for a quick game so i can get the jist of this?!
This is the url:
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6504

One hour phase, which looking around seems lightening fast to you people, lol, but i can't be waiting 1 to 3 days to see if id like this.
2 replies
Open
TrueHeart (162 D)
31 Oct 08 UTC
Game WWIII - Dude 2490
Please Dude2490, could you finalize your orders for your one fleet so this game can end. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
0 replies
Open
Pandarsenic (1485 D)
29 Oct 08 UTC
Assassin: Another game of intrigue and paranoia
Assassin may be, in fact, the only game that
1) takes longer
2) creates more paranoia
Than Diplomacy.
50 replies
Open
Pandarsenic (1485 D)
31 Oct 08 UTC
Can you support someone else's move into your own territory?
It seems like a mildly suicidal thing, but is it, technically, allowed?
12 replies
Open
mac (189 D)
30 Oct 08 UTC
Finalise or not in winter.
Four lines are too few. Read first reply.
12 replies
Open
_Beau_ (212 D)
31 Oct 08 UTC
email updates
It would be nice if you could receive an email as soon as a move is made.
Ideally this email would include an updated world map.
4 replies
Open
dangermouse (5551 D)
30 Oct 08 UTC
Moderator Dilemma
I'm going to be without internet from tomorrow (Friday) through Sunday. I've asked players to pause the games I am in, but it's possible they won't all do so.
15 replies
Open
Simon (100 D)
31 Oct 08 UTC
How to join a game with code?
My friend opens a gme with code.
How can I find this game.
Please tell me.
2 replies
Open
Assendous (100 D)
31 Oct 08 UTC
Join this Bomb Game
everyone needs to get in this game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2 replies
Open
spyman (424 D(G))
30 Oct 08 UTC
New Game: Slanted and Enchanted
36 hour phase. 20 points to joins. All welcome.
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6475
1 reply
Open
amathur2k (100 D)
30 Oct 08 UTC
Support question
Hi kestas,
Can a unit which is under attack cut support to a completely different unit(not involved in the attack) by attacking it.
Eg, In game http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6244
Sevastopol is succesfully attacked by Armenia and Black Sea, however this Sevas's attack on Moscow prevented Moscow from Supporting hold at Warsaw, is this correct ?
3 replies
Open
Chrispminis (916 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
The Fiat Currency
I've been seeing a lot of bashing of central banking and the fiat currency lately on the internet, and I was wondering if you could all enlighten me.
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Chrispminis (916 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
Most of the videos, such as Zeitgeist, basically propound that central banking and a fiat currency unbacked by gold standard causes perpetual debt, inflation, and generally economic nastiness that is crippling our progress etc.

My question is this really true? If it is, then what the hell are we sitting around for? This sounds like a horrible thing! Perhaps it's exaggerated a la cardstacking? I'm inclined to believe this... but then again, knowing the state of economic theory as it is, with massive disagreements and various seemingly logical schools of thought which are directly in opposition, I'm wondering if this problem is only a matter of a certain interpretation, or a general misunderstanding of economic principles.

To start us off, I'm going to try to defend our current monetary system as best as I am able, despite having little economics background. For this, I admit, I'm going to be stealing information off of Wikipedia articles, but I'll be paraphrasing in my own words which I think are clearer and less muddied up by economic jargon.

Firstly, it doesn't seem to me like debt is as bad as these videos make it sound. The word debt carries a lot of connotative baggage, and I think it's this that leads to it's misinterpretation.There was one remark made in Zeitgeist that was along the lines of Money = Debt, because did you know, that if all debts were paid off now, there would be no money? This was said to show that money in our fiat system was inherently wrong, but it sounded to me like that should be how it works. When money is created out of nothing, should not an associated debt also be created as you cannot create value out of nothing, so an associated negative value is also created? I get the feeling that I could have this terrrrribly wrong though.

The following argument is derived from the following paper: "There's no such thing as fiat money" by Michael Sproul (http://www.econ.ucla.edu/workingpapers/wp830.pdf)

Say a bank agrees to take a person's 100 oz of Silver and in exchange prints $100 of currency, so at a rate of 1oz of silver per dollar. In this case the $100 printed is backed by a silver standard. But then say another person wishes to borrow $200 dollars from the bank. The bank prints the $200 dollars and loans it out to this person (for simplicity, at no interest). Does this devalue the dollar? It would seem like the bank has $300 dollars in circulation now, but only has 100oz of silver in it's vaults. Does this mean the dollar is only worth 1/3 of what it was before? No. The dollar is still exchangeable at a rate of 1oz of silver per dollar, because the bank has the assets to back up the dollar, even if it's not in the form of silver. This is because when it loaned out the money, it received the debt of the second person. If the $300 dollars were taken to the bank and asked to be redeemed, the bank could exchange 100oz of silver, and $200 worth of debt in exchange for its printed currency.

But what about interest? Well, now let's assume the bank has costs... say for printing, wages, anti-counterfeiting measures, etc. that amount to some number of oz. of silver a year. Interest pays for these costs. When the bank pays these costs they pay the money to real people, returning the money back to the market. When interest generates a profit for the bank, that money is re-invested into the market.

From what I can see, the monetary system is sound as long as the bank's assets cover the money they print. Even a "fiat" currency is backed, just not directly to some immutable resource, but to the bank's assets.

Feel free to tear it apart, because I'm here to learn. Read the paper that I linked to for further arguments, and information that I couldn't understand, but perhaps you can, and are willing to translate them to layman for all of us here.
Schlort (144 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
That was a pretty good summary. One of the problems with backing your money with precious metals is that now the money supply is dependent upon the value of some arbitrary lump of metal.
This creates inflation or deflation when the economy grows faster or slower than the miners are pulling ore out of the earth. Does that make any sense?

Fiat currency isn't just used by governments. Stock in companies is, in effect, fiat currency. And like government issued money, it gets created based on a combination of the companies needs and everyone else's perception of its value. Likewise the rest of us also use a more intangible form of fiat money. We trade favors with people. I buy lunch this week, you buy next week. Or I borrow money based on some credit score.

Note that this can go horribly wrong. The best example is Zimbabwe.
This is also why most countries work so hard to stamp out forgery. (FYI Euros have really good counterfeit protection.)
Even a dip in people's confidence in a currency will cause it to drop in value.
Think about it ... in countries with less than stable currency, people often will keep Dollars or Euros so that if they have some run-away inflation, their foreign currency of choice will still hold its value. All of those dollars that are sitting in safety deposit boxes, mattresses, etc are effectively a zero percent loan from the US government to the rest of the world. If someone looses confidence in the dollar, they stop holding it and spend it.
Then the loan just came due.
Chrispminis (916 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
Well the argument for gold standard was that the price of gold has remained relatively constant throughout history with regards to other goods, whereas the dollar has lost significant value through inflation.

There is the problem with the gold standard that there is not nearly enough gold to represent the world's money, so a pure gold standard would probably not be feasible. More likely, it would be multiple metals, if a standard were to be put in place.

Darwyn, I know you're a proponent of the opposite view, that the Fed creates perpetual debt. Care to explain? Or anyone else for that matter?

I remember there being an economist here. Perhaps they can through their weight into the ring?
kestasjk (64 DMod(P))
20 Oct 08 UTC
An interesting discussion, I'm in the same boat as Chrispminis in that I've read some Wikipedia articles but have no education in economics, and I've also reached a level of suspicion about the gold backed standard idea
Braveheart (2408 D(S))
20 Oct 08 UTC
I don't really have time to address all these points, but you should remember that inflation in itself is not intrinsically a bad thing. Rampant and more importantly unpredictable inflation rates are the problem.

Zero inflation (or deflation) also creates many problems.

At a macro level - consider that in Japan, as there has been practically no inflation for many years now, the BoJ is unable use interest rates as a tool to stimulate growth... as interest rates have been pretty much set at zero, but cannot be lowered any further (without actually paying people to borrow money from you).

At a micro level, some inflation is also good for businesses and can raise employment levels in 2 ways:
1) Makes it easier for firms to raise prices over time... if inflation is zero, consumers notice every price rise. But if inflation is 3% and a firm raises prices by 4% then consumers tend not to notice (even though there is a 1% rise in real prices).
2) Wages are sticky downwards - which refers to the fact that employees are much more likely to accept a page rise which is lower than inflation than an actual cut in their pay if there was no inflation (even though in real terms the pay deals could be identical). This phenomenon means that if inflation is very low during a recession firms have less room to respond by cutting real wages.
sean (3490 D(B))
20 Oct 08 UTC
ah deflation...my sister bought a can of coffeee for 100 yen 15 years ago...and it still cost 100yen now in Japan!
on the downside the starting wage hasn't changed all that much over the same period:(
spyman (424 D(G))
20 Oct 08 UTC
I saw Zeitgeist the Movie. As I recall the film was critical of fractional-reserve banking, whereby banks can lend more money than they actually have. The film argued that fractional-reserve banking was a "debt-based" system that is used to enslave us. Another film I saw called "Money Masters" presented a similar case about debt based banking.
As I see it banks can lend more money than have so long as that money is used productively, and is eventually paid back. If too little value is created then the whole system can theoretically collapse; and parts of it do from time to time. (Disclaimer: I know very little about economics. This is just my impression.)
stratagos (3269 D(S))
20 Oct 08 UTC
Ah, macroeconomics!

Your original post was fairly good, but there's one point you overlooked. While the $200 loan is backed by an asset (the collateral for the loan), it's not an asset that can usually be immediately translated into cash. That's why when economists talk about cash, they're talking about what is called M1 - assets that can be used as a means of exchange (currency and checking deposits).

Of course, big banks have lots of deposits and lots of asset-backed loans. It's only when more people want their money than the bank has cash that there is a problem (also known as a run on the bank). It's not that the bank doesn't have *something*, but I can't really go to Walmart and buy a soda with a fraction of the deed on a car.

The current mess can be directly linked to overvaluing assets (ie: the Mortgaged Backed Securities you hear about) and insufficient reserves.

I'm not even going to dignify the "let's go back on the gold standard!" crowd with a response. Even if sufficient metal existed to serve as a store of value, the disruptions that would take place would make the current crisis look like a flipping *tea party*
aoe3rules (949 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
Hey, it's not our fault our government is bankrupt.

Wait, yes it is.
stratagos (3269 D(S))
20 Oct 08 UTC
Bread and circuses ;)
Darwyn (1601 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
Hi Chris...yes, I am a proponent of notion that the Fed creates perpetual debt. The reason lies directly with the current US Federal Reserve system. I'm not economist either (so take this for what it's worth), but here's what happens:

The Fed hires the US Treasury to print up money to loan to the banks at interest. But the Fed doesn't actually pay for the money it wants created, only the printing.

It then loans the bank $1 and expects $1.10 in return on something they paid only pennies for.

The problem then is that with that $1, the bank will only ever be able to pay $1 in return...because in order to pay the interest, it needs the Fed to print more money! You can now begin to see the cycle of perpetual debt.

This can explain it in much more detail:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ARTICLE2/doodoo.html?q=ARTICLE2/doodoo.html
orathaic (1009 D(B))
20 Oct 08 UTC
no Darwyn.
The bank can invest in a bussiness, (or really the bussines goes to the bank looking for a loan)

The bank lends the 1$ out and with interest (if they made a good choice of who to lend to) will easily be able to pay back the Fed and make a profit.

now the existance of money for banks to lend (which the Fed has created out of nothing) is used by real people who have ideas and are successful at producing useful products/services to society in general. (this is a recipe for a successful country)

of course by your arguement there is a set amount of cash in the system, and the only way to create more is to print it. Which is fair, but the treasury doesn't really want you(the banks) to repay all your loans. That would take money out of the economy, the money which people simply use to grease up the exchange of goods and services. (the lack of available dollars/credit would freeze up the economy as people were unable to trade.) This is bad.

So whenever the Fed is paid back, it will simply loan back the cash to someone else. probably causing inflation by increasing the money supply, but also using various mechanisms of the rate of interest to control it.

Chrispminis (916 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
stratagos, I'm not sure what your first paragraph means... Does it make a difference if you receive $200 in cash versus $200 in debt other than the liquidity?
Darwyn (1601 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
Well, the question to me was specifically about perpetual debt.

Regardless of how the bank loans money and profits from those loans, the banks will always be 10% (or whatever percentage) indebted to the Fed, no matter what. The Fed never gets paid in full because there is always a 10% (or whatever percentage) shortfall of money to pay it back. They create the money and expect 10% (or whatever percentage) more in return...this of course, is impossible.

That is perpetual debt.
Centurian (3257 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
Inflation is like iron. Obviously you shouldn't eat chunks of it because you will die. But that doesn't mean developing an iron-deficiency is good for you.

Money isn't just cash. Its imaginary. When the US passed the bailout bill they didn't just send a large order to the treasury and then send dumptrucks of twenties to wall street.
Centurian (3257 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
Darwyn, you realise that not all money ever produced in history is currently in circulation right?
Darwyn (1601 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
Yes, I am aware of that. But it doesn't matter...whether it's physical paper money or digits on a computer, the Fed creates perpetual debt.

"When the US passed the bailout bill they didn't just send a large order to the treasury and then send dumptrucks of twenties to wall street."

Right, instead they entered a bunch of zeros on a computer somewhere, but it's the same effect.
Darwyn (1601 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
It's the Fed's job to inject money into the system, be it physically by printing money or adding some zeros in a computer somewhere.

Either way, there's a percentage of that money creation that is expected back to the Fed for providing the service.
Withnail160 (1204 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
"It's not that the bank doesn't have *something*, but I can't really go to Walmart and buy a soda with a fraction of the deed on a car.".....

Actually this is absolutely possible and is very relevant to the cause of the current "financial crisis"....pay with a credit card (exchange a debt for a debt). Receivables on motor cars (for which the deed will be held as security against the finance receivable and repackaged as an asset backed security and sold to your investment fund, and is probably then lent to a hedge fund to cover their short position in those securities....) are a large part of the "assets" supporting the $200 loan...

The problem is not so much the original assets that the bank is relying on to protect their own debts but rather the ever increasing leverage that is created by a financial market layering one transaction on another (through the asset backed securitisation market and the short selling system)

Under European and US regulations a bank is allowed to loan $12 for every $1 of its own money.....but after the loans it makes are securitised (often more than once through CDOs) the system is much more highly leveraged than 8x, in some cases up to 100x). Because of this, when a larger than expected number of the original loans don't behave "as expected" (or in other words the way they were priced by the market) the impact on the banks in magnified many times

I recommend the attached link to a comment that makes Nostradamus look like an amateur...I swear that guy has a crystal ball!!

http://www.crikey.com.au/Business/20081003-Questioning-Buffetts-show-of-faith-in-Goldman-Sachs.html
spyman (424 D(G))
20 Oct 08 UTC
I don't think the perpetual debt argument makes any sense as the money lent can be used to make a profit. For example, the Reserve Bank lends the money to other banks at interest, but those banks then lend the money out at a higher interest rate (profit). The money can then be used for productive activities such as farming or industry (more profit).
Darwyn (1601 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
But isn't "more profit" just a fancy way of saying inflation?

The $1.10 is still owed to the Fed, but now since more people need money, we pump (read: create) $9 more dollars to give to the banks to cover those "more profits" that everyone made, thus devaluing the $1 you had in there by a factor of 9(?ish)...so the one dollar is now only worth $0.10 (or something, I'm bad at math).

With nothing to back it, no amount of *more* money that's created to cover the profits will ever amount to enough to pay back the original debt created.

That's my understanding of it, at least. I hope I made sense. :)
Withnail160 (1204 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
More profit does not mean the same as inflation (well, at least it is not the same thing)....more profit MIGHT be due to inflation but not necessarily. Growth can also lead to more profit....thus real growth is the increase in output
Centurian (3257 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
Darwyn, can you tell me whats wrong with inflation? Is it that it is associated with economic growth? Or is it that it reduces the real value of the the national debt that you seem so worried about?
spyman (424 D(G))
20 Oct 08 UTC
Darywn by profit I am also referring to value created by the money in the form of goods and services. If no goods and services were created with the money then you would have inflation - actually money would have little or no value.
At any rate the profit that the Reserve Bank makes is returned to US treasury where it is then injected back into the economy in the form of wages and other goverment expenditure (at least that is my understanding: somebody correct me if I am mistaken). Money itself is not the source of wealth, it is just medium of exchange for the goods and services created by society.
Centurian (3257 D)
20 Oct 08 UTC
The Multiplier effect! Nice work spyman
spyman (424 D(G))
21 Oct 08 UTC
The multiplier effect - thanks Centurian. I didn't know it was called that, but I do now :)
spyman (424 D(G))
21 Oct 08 UTC
Darwyn, let's say, for example, that fractional-reserve banking is a debt based money system and creates "perpetual debt": Why is this a bad thing?
spyman (424 D(G))
21 Oct 08 UTC
I should probably elaborate on that last point. We have this "debt based system"; the wheels of the world still turn; for most countries (especially in the west) the standard of living has been rising steadily for the last hundred years; the US is the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world. Doesn't this all serve as evidence that the system works quite well? (Btw,I am playing devils advocate here)
Darwyn (1601 D)
21 Oct 08 UTC
@Centurian - Inflation isn't inherently bad, I think it's just the result of pouring more money into the system. As long as that money is backed by something other than thin air, inflation is controllable (I think). But our system is backed by nothing but the whim of the Fed. The Fed controls inflation because money is backed by nothing. They can stop or escalate inflation by simply adjusting the amount of money in the system. They did this once in 1985.

@spyman, - I'm okay with devils advocate...

Does this serve as evidence that it works well? Well, take a look at what's happening now. Sure it was great for a while, but the world financial system, which is linked to the US financial system, is showing signs of cracking. Everyone is feeling the pinch right now.

What I've been trying to get at, is that with the passage of the Federal Reserve Act, US money ceased being backed by anything. It gave power to the Fed to issue money. The Fed is essentially a private bank. So the Fed issued NEW money...and for all the money they issued, they loaned to the banks at interest...so that the banks can loan it to you at interest.

It would be like a group of farmers bartering with apples, where one farmer owns all the apples and where apples cannot be exchanged with any amount of oranges, cows, sheep, chickens or eggs. That one farmer would then loan each other farmer, say 10 apples...but he would expect 11 apples in return. Well, the other farmers have no way of making apples to pay for the extra one needed to settle the debt. Even if more apples enter their bartering system, the apples only come from the one farm and only enter the system through a loan that demands extra apples. The farmer is essentially giving you 10 apples and expecting 11. If he does this with the six other farmers in this bartering system, the farmers will ALL be on the hook for an extra six apples that simply DO NOT EXIST. And you have no way of getting the apples because the apples aren't based from anything.

Money IS power. And perpetual debt, keeps the power of money into the hands of the few. And we all know that power in the hands of the few is not a good thing.
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
21 Oct 08 UTC
Perpetual debt is not a bad thing. After all, we produce. For example, we harness the power of the sun directly and indirectly every moment of the day.
Since we are expected to produce there is no problem in the Fed lending money to us. There is always more and more and more money coming into circulation whether we like it or not. Even if we used a gold-standard we would still have more and more money as we keep mining gold.

See? We are certainly able to pay back our debts, it is simply that we are better off with the extra money to work with. It's not ours, it's like borrowing money from the future.

I may be wrong. Don't blame me!

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202 replies
orathaic (1009 D(B))
30 Oct 08 UTC
new game?
is anyone interested in a 230 point game? I kinda want to ensure all the games i play from now on are on the first page of the finished game list. (at least up there, i'm only in the top one right now :(

0 replies
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Otto Von Bismark (653 D)
28 Oct 08 UTC
I created the game The Great Terror
Join up 500 points
7 replies
Open
Pandarsenic (1485 D)
30 Oct 08 UTC
Move inexplicably fizzled out.
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6381

I don't THINK it was a misorder, but if you look at the Large View, Austria (me) had Rumania Support Move from Serbia to Constantinople. This Support (and thus, the move) failed for no apparent reason. To quote one player I was talking to, this "makes no sense whatsoever." Any ideas?
15 replies
Open
ersilcoff (100 D)
29 Oct 08 UTC
ycamolpiDphp v6.9 - one player playing two copuntries?
two powers that have been allied all game and have really made no mistakes both missed the latest move.
is there any way to tell if they are not coming from the same ip address?
4 replies
Open
lazysummer8484 (0 DX)
30 Oct 08 UTC
Quick Question
is it possible for an army to retreat to where it's invader came from? (given that that place is now empty?)
3 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
27 Oct 08 UTC
The oppressors and the oppressed
Two lists of people – how many would appear on both lists?
Please add only one to each category for each post.
68 replies
Open
wideyedwanderer (706 D)
30 Oct 08 UTC
Question
Does the in game message system work after the game has ended? Does it still alert the receiver of a new message?
5 replies
Open
sean (3490 D(B))
29 Oct 08 UTC
Internet Connection Speeds and Prices
just want to know about everyone around the world
see below
10 replies
Open
spartan492 (381 D)
30 Oct 08 UTC
Stalemate?
Could someone who knows about such things bettr than I do please enlighten me asto whether this game is a stalemate or not?

http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5576
12 replies
Open
Zxylon (0 DX)
26 Oct 08 UTC
Has Anyone Ever Won With Less than Half of Their Home SC's?
Post your stories here.
14 replies
Open
mckayje3 (301 D)
29 Oct 08 UTC
Both US Political Parties Picked the Wrong Candidate for President
Hillary would make a better president than Obama; Romney would make a better president than McCain.

Note: I actually don't have a strong opinion on this, but I posed it once before and everyone else had a VERY strong opinion on it.
10 replies
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Assendous (100 D)
30 Oct 08 UTC
Join Stickle
this war is to die for
0 replies
Open
Assendous (100 D)
30 Oct 08 UTC
The new War is about to start
Join this match to have some fun and do ultimate strategies
0 replies
Open
mac (189 D)
30 Oct 08 UTC
Don't vote!
I assume most of USA citizens from this forum have seen this already... Yet, just in case, you are my 5 friends and my 5 enemies!! ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvLgBTJXZUQ
0 replies
Open
Durango 95-Purring horrorshow
24 hour deadline and the pot is 34.
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6470
1 reply
Open
Lizard (224 D)
29 Oct 08 UTC
The Help is really incomplete
I thing the Help could include some more information, like that you can't move two ships onto one sea, like I tried in my absolute first Diplomacy turn here: http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6415. You should also include that you only capture a country at the end of a Year and other important information. If you can't/ don't want to put this information on the Help Page please include at least some information.
13 replies
Open
TheMasterGamer (3491 D)
29 Oct 08 UTC
CD status
I think the game is kicking people into CD status too early. In the game http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6079 during the spring move Germany has 4 sc's and make his move. During the fall move he fails to submit orders and was reduced to 1 sc prior to retreats. Because he is at 1 sc and did not submit an order he was placed in CD status. This then caused the retreat to automatically be disbanded.
4 replies
Open
pxc (100 D)
29 Oct 08 UTC
Mommy, look, I made a game!
And I don't even need to use my hands!!
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=6465
18 point buy-in, 24h turns
0 replies
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